PASSHE Institutions Merging

[boatcapt]

I don't think you're reading what we're saying. Clarion is in financial trouble: years of operating deficits and they're out of reserves (cash savings). If Clarion cuts football they cut $800k in expenses, they also lose 90-100 students who will go elsewhere and take their tuition money with them, so Clarion's $800k cut is actually a $1.1 million net loss. That also doesn't consider the blow to alumni giving and community engagement. These teams aren't built like high school teams. You don't hold sign ups & tryouts for current students. Nearly all were recruited by a coach to attend that school using football as the hook. Take away the hook and the student goes elsewhere.

I have no doubt that Clarion (and other triad schools) WANTS to keep DII football, the question is, will they be permitted to do so? If the drive is to keep the student head count up and their tuition dollars flowing, there are other sanctioning bodies out there that would probably look quite favorably on four teams in PA looking to join them. In the case of the USCAA, take the four "non-NCAA" PA football programs, add them to the two existing USCAA and play as a 6 team "conference" with the top two teams playing in the "USCAA National Championship" game. Schools get to keep the 100 tuition paying football players and have a much better chance of hanging a National Championship banner than their football teams would ever have at the DII level.

And you don't have to build your roster from ONLY players who have already enrolled at your school. You can recruit just as you do under the DII model. Plenty of HS players who considered their football careers over and were planning on attending the local Community College who would be more than happy to receive a Preferred Walk-On offer from a state school.

[Fightingscot82]

Much will be decided by the NCAA but I see the triads heading down the road of a "distributed" athletic program with no duplication. One of the campuses is chosen to be the home of the football team, another houses the men's basketball, another houses the women's basketball team , etc, etc, etc. I also see each triad athletic department adding non-revenue, student "producing" sports spread out over the three schools in the same manner.

I do see the possibility of triads seeking out "alternatives" to NCAA sponsorship for certain sports that they may want to overlap in. For example, the Bloomsburg campus housing the NCAA DII football team with Mansfield housing their Sprint team and the Locke Haven campus having a football program flying the USCAA flag.

I don't think you're reading what we're saying. Clarion is in financial trouble: years of operating deficits and they're out of reserves (cash savings). If Clarion cuts football they cut $800k in expenses, they also lose 90-100 students who will go elsewhere and take their tuition money with them, so Clarion's $800k cut is actually a $1.1 million net loss. That also doesn't consider the blow to alumni giving and community engagement. These teams aren't built like high school teams. You don't hold sign ups & tryouts for current students. Nearly all were recruited by a coach to attend that school using football as the hook. Take away the hook and the student goes elsewhere.

Cutting sports doesn't fix the problem, it makes it worse.

[boatcapt]

I'd agree this current exercise is a glorified band-aid.

Yes...a temporary fix designed to buy time. I also see it as sort of a Beta test. Going to be things that work in the consolidation and things that don't work. The future PASSHE consolidations will learn from the mistakes and successes of the current process and the future consolidations will be much smoother. I could see the PASSHE devolving to five entities NW, SW, Central, NE and SE.

[boatcapt]

Yep. And I think all schools are going to share online classes. The wheels are already atleast partially in motion for this.

That will likely mean less faculty needed across the system. They'll share lower level classes and save money that way.

Interestingly, the Triads...are actually considered 4 campuses with online being the 4th.

As far as sports, the Triads will either be the same as they are now, or I could see them balancing out. The bad sports teams will get more money. The good a little less. But, the fundraising will be separate. Coaches salaries will equalize, etc. I'm pretty sure you won't see 1 super team.

PASSHE is also going to centralize more services. ie HR will be a PASSHE service and you won't have HR on campus. Like they did with Purchasing.

Much will be decided by the NCAA but I see the triads heading down the road of a "distributed" athletic program with no duplication. One of the campuses is chosen to be the home of the football team, another houses the men's basketball, another houses the women's basketball team , etc, etc, etc. I also see each triad athletic department adding non-revenue, student "producing" sports spread out over the three schools in the same manner.

I do see the possibility of triads seeking out "alternatives" to NCAA sponsorship for certain sports that they may want to overlap in. For example, the Bloomsburg campus housing the NCAA DII football team with Mansfield housing their Sprint team and the Locke Haven campus having a football program flying the USCAA flag.

[boatcapt]

I don't see how one AD for a 3 school triad can work. Not in any equitable manner, anyway.

Private funding for individual sports is one thing but there has to be a budget determined that uses university funds. There exists a different value system placed on each sport at each individual institution (triad member). How do you maintain that local value system.

Sports is going to be pretty messy.

If you have one AD and one athletic budget, do you really have 3 separate athletic programs? I wonder how the NCAA will view this vis a vis sports "overlap?"

[complaint_hopeful]

I think at step 0 consolidating athletics was part of the concept. But then the working groups were formed and they for the first time in ~100 years of athletics at these schools realized that nearly all programs bring in more tuition dollars than they cost to operate - and if you eliminate a program you also eliminate students and their tuition. So the exact opposite is going to happen. We're going to see some underfunded non-revenue sports at these schools (and maybe elsewhere in PASSHE if it proves successful) like golf, field hockey, lacrosse, soccer, cross country & track, indoor track, tennis, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if we see more schools exploring the addition of non-athletic competitive programs under athletics like "varsity" e-sports, equestrian, etc.

Long story short, these mergers are about schools running out of revenue sources. Cutting athletics cuts an expense but results in a net loss of revenue. Its lose-lose.

e-sports are indeed coming to more schools. Some already have it, but I know it's in the plans at certain ones too. Of course, schools that do e-sports right spend millions sometimes. These schools will likely buy a dozen gaming computers and call it a day.

But yes, the Triads are about some of these schools failing financially. The financial projections are pretty terrible at several schools. So it's about staying in business. This definately isn't about building powerhouse sports programs. And I think some of the leadership went into this exercise thinking that they'd actually cut sports to save money, but then when they reviewed the financials...they realized exactly what you said...that they'd lose students and lose revenue. So they then wanted to add sports that are cheaper to fund. They'll let parents and students pay so that their kid can be a college athlete.

[Fightingscot82]

If the whole point of consolidation is to cut costs, doesn't it seem likely that athletics will also be consolidated? I know we're being told otherwise, but really? This article is already using a new name for the triads...

https://www.universityworldnews.com/...21082011023382

I think at step 0 consolidating athletics was part of the concept. But then the working groups were formed and they for the first time in ~100 years of athletics at these schools realized that nearly all programs bring in more tuition dollars than they cost to operate - and if you eliminate a program you also eliminate students and their tuition. So the exact opposite is going to happen. We're going to see some underfunded non-revenue sports at these schools (and maybe elsewhere in PASSHE if it proves successful) like golf, field hockey, lacrosse, soccer, cross country & track, indoor track, tennis, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if we see more schools exploring the addition of non-athletic competitive programs under athletics like "varsity" e-sports, equestrian, etc.

I believe all 13 PASSHE schools in the PSAC were ordered to do an ROI analysis for each program. Net tuition minus operating expenses. This is pretty common for private universities. No idea why this wasn't done sooner in PASSHE. I honestly think they never had to truly think critically about relationship between strategic expenses and revenue until it was too late.

Long story short, these mergers are about schools running out of revenue sources. Cutting athletics cuts an expense but results in a net loss of revenue. Its lose-lose.

[Fightingscot82]

I don't see how one AD for a 3 school triad can work. Not in any equitable manner, anyway.

Private funding for individual sports is one thing but there has to be a budget determined that uses university funds. There exists a different value system placed on each sport at each individual institution (triad member). How do you maintain that local value system.

Sports is going to be pretty messy.

The "one AD" model is what I gather from what has been published online and what I've heard from folks at the three western triad schools. Most administrative structure is being combined. There will be one person "in charge" then physically at each campus that division/department will have a deputy who advises the person in charge. I believe its the Cal AD overseeing athletics at all three schools but each school will have a de facto AD on the ground. The local AD just won't have complete autonomy. Beyond policy consistency, I don't see how this helps or really saves money.

[WarriorVoice]

I think you'll see some consistency in how sports are prioritized & funded. There is going to be one true athletic director at each triad. There is one athletic fundraiser for the west triad. So Edinboro and Clarion will soon know how Cal raises their money and fill any gaps they had based on what the other two are doing. But the scholarship money is always separate and won't be comingled. My donations to Edinboro athletics won't do crap for Clarion or Cal.

https://www.universityworldnews.com/...21082011023382

[ironmaniup]

I would consider that to be a major detriment to triadism. That advanced class is where you really become qualified to do what your major says you should be able to do. Those are the most valuable, professionally qualifying classes and if your theory becomes reality the education is getting watered down and less competitive with other schools.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

I don't see how one AD for a 3 school triad can work. Not in any equitable manner, anyway.

Private funding for individual sports is one thing but there has to be a budget determined that uses university funds. There exists a different value system placed on each sport at each individual institution (triad member). How do you maintain that local value system.

Sports is going to be pretty messy.

You can't. It will be a disaster. Then death.

[iupgroundhog]

I think you'll see some consistency in how sports are prioritized & funded. There is going to be one true athletic director at each triad. There is one athletic fundraiser for the west triad. So Edinboro and Clarion will soon know how Cal raises their money and fill any gaps they had based on what the other two are doing. But the scholarship money is always separate and won't be comingled. My donations to Edinboro athletics won't do crap for Clarion or Cal.

I don't see how one AD for a 3 school triad can work. Not in any equitable manner, anyway.

Private funding for individual sports is one thing but there has to be a budget determined that uses university funds. There exists a different value system placed on each sport at each individual institution (triad member). How do you maintain that local value system.

Sports is going to be pretty messy.

[iupgroundhog]

Actually they will share upper level classes. Admin hate classes with 5 students, but they have to have them for the lower enrolled majors, so they keep psych 101 but share advanced psychological measurements, and have 1 30 student class rather than 3 separate 10 student classes

I would consider that to be a major detriment to triadism. That advanced class is where you really become qualified to do what your major says you should be able to do. Those are the most valuable, professionally qualifying classes and if your theory becomes reality the education is getting watered down and less competitive with other schools.

[ironmaniup]

Yep. And I think all schools are going to share online classes. The wheels are already atleast partially in motion for this.

That will likely mean less faculty needed across the system. They'll share lower level classes and save money that way.

Interestingly, the Triads...are actually considered 4 campuses with online being the 4th.

.

Actually they will share upper level classes. Admin hate classes with 5 students, but they have to have them for the lower enrolled majors, so they keep psych 101 but share advanced psychological measurements, and have 1 30 student class rather than 3 separate 10 student classes

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Yep. I think over time you'll see schools balance out. Might be years though.

Balance out may equal dirt nap.