OT: NFL

[IUP24]

If you only measure it on Stanley Cup titles...then yes. 5 Cups is pretty impressive.

However...the Potbellied Snow Chickens did declare bankruptcy twice. First in 1975 and again 1998 after all the big contracts they handed out after the first two cups sank the franchise financially

The team struck lightning twice getting generational talent after being the absolute worst team in the league. They were just butt awful in the early 80's. They purposedly tanked in 83/84 (much to the Devils protests) and that got them Mario and were able to add Lady Jagr after Mario was hurt and they missed the playoffs in 1990. You got the two Cups out of them and then it all went into the toilet again....having the worst attendance in the league and almost moved to Kansas City before you got Cindy and Ugly Boy in drafts that were overloaded with talent that of course did not go to the Flyers.

So...I wouldn't say you got all of that talent and titles based on being a well run franchise all of those years. There was a whole lotta luck and being in the right place at the right time on draft day in 1984, 1990, 2003, 2004 and 2005.

Not that the Flyers have anything to brag about. Booby Clarke and Drunk Paul Holmgren screwed up more often than not and had the money to do whatever and had nothing to show for it. It's disgraceful. Then Hextall really ****ed everything up and we are still working out of that mess. Old Man Ed always going after washed up veterans was always a losing proposition. Overpaying for Lindros set back the franchise and turned out to be a crap trade since we already had the better player in Forsberg and all it did was make the Colorado Avalanche an elite team while the Lindros led Flyers highest mark was getting swept in the 97 Cup finals.

They couldn't even luck into the top pick this year....the Fishsticks finished higher than the Flyers and got the top pick in the lottery.

Thank Goodness for the Iggles and Phillies.

What exactly are you debating here?

[IUPNation]

Current MLB Attendance

1	LA Dodgers	18	924,549	51,363	0.0	23	35,930	0.0	41	42,706	0.0
2	San Diego	18	762,208	42,344	0.0	21	27,537	0.0	39	34,371	0.0
3	NY Yankees	20	834,289	41,714	0.0	19	18,083	0.0	39	30,201	0.0
4	Philadelphia	19	781,411	41,126	0.0	21	30,325	0.0	40	35,456	0.0
5	NY Mets	19	703,514	37,027	0.0	22	23,104	0.0	41	29,556	0.0
6	Atlanta	18	649,724	36,095	0.0	22	30,177	0.0	40	32,840	0.0
7	San Francisco	17	600,089	35,299	0.0	24	34,633	0.0	41	34,909	0.0
8	Chicago Cubs	19	665,092	35,004	0.0	22	34,156	0.0	41	34,549	0.0
9	LA Angels	19	636,640	33,507	0.0	20	21,739	0.0	39	27,472	0.0
10	Houston	21	697,160	33,198	0.0	18	21,804	0.0	39	27,939	0.0
11	Arizona	23	747,370	32,494	0.0	18	29,974	0.0	41	31,388	0.0
12	Boston	20	637,081	31,854	0.0	22	24,046	0.0	42	27,764	0.0
13	St. Louis	21	601,381	28,637	0.0	19	26,969	0.0	40	27,845	0.0
14	Texas	20	570,681	28,534	0.0	21	25,910	0.0	41	27,190	0.0
15	Toronto	19	529,851	27,886	0.0	20	31,425	0.0	39	29,701	0.0
16	Seattle	21	554,369	26,398	0.0	18	27,023	0.0	39	26,686	0.0
17	Milwaukee	19	497,093	26,162	0.0	22	25,685	0.0	41	25,906	0.0
18	Colorado	20	522,357	26,117	0.0	18	33,822	0.0	38	29,767	0.0
19	Washington	21	547,377	26,065	0.0	19	20,719	0.0	40	23,525	0.0
20	Detroit	19	467,847	24,623	0.0	21	27,201	0.0	40	25,977	0.0
21	Baltimore	17	408,657	24,038	0.0	22	23,842	0.0	39	23,927	0.0
22	Cincinnati	18	371,443	20,635	0.0	23	27,408	0.0	41	24,434	0.0
23	Cleveland	19	386,897	20,363	0.0	20	29,102	0.0	39	24,845	0.0
24	Kansas City	22	424,962	19,316	0.0	19	24,231	0.0	41	21,594	0.0
25	Minnesota	21	378,169	18,008	0.0	20	23,375	0.0	41	20,626	0.0
26	Pittsburgh	22	379,938	17,269	0.0	19	25,894	0.0	41	21,266	0.0
27	Chicago White Sox	21	349,933	16,663	0.0	20	21,091	0.0	41	18,823	0.0
28	Miami	22	278,877	12,676	0.0	17	35,327	0.0	39	22,550	0.0
29	Athletics	21	213,500	10,166	0.0	20	23,825	0.0	41	16,829	0.0
30	Tampa Bay	28	280,036	10,001	0.0	12	33,385	0.0	40	17,016	0

[IUPNation]

The Hillbilly Prince isn't leaving anytime soon.

No...but he has a destination stadium and wastes it.

I mean...the building alone...Citizens Bank Park is a better design (every seat in CBP faces the infield) than PNC...but PNC has the setting that makes it a destination park. He could be printing money with Yinzers and visiting fans selling it out every game.

All he has to look to Philadelphia to see what it can be like most nights........

Love this...still gives me chills the crowd singing Stott's Walk Up Song...

[IUPNation]

I challenge that notion in the bigger picture. The Pittsburgh Penguins are, in my opinion, the most successful franchise in the city. They have been most successful NHL franchise since the league's 2nd expansion in 1967. They are the winningest franchise in the NHL since 1990. Outside of the Steelers run in the 70s, there's been a ton of average football in there outside of the prime years of the Ben era. Far too few people acknowledge that.

I don't ask for everyone to agree. I'll admit that the Penguins are my first love and favorite team. I'm most invested in them compared to any other of the teams. But I think they are the most successful team in the city when you extrapolate out their life cycles. For nearly 40 years they have had arguably the best player in the world wearing a Penguins jersey.

The Penguins are the contrary to your notion. Their organization zigs to the "blue collar" mantra that many hold dear in Western PA. It's also why the hardcore Steeler lifers aren't hockey/Penguin fans (or aren't good ones or intelligent ones if they are). The Penguins are, and have always been, driven on star power. Glitz and glam. Exceptional skill. Not hardhat and lunch pale philosophy. Fortune has had a way of helping to formulate that organizational philosophy (Mario, Sid, and Jagr all via the NHL entry draft). But the Penguins DNA is to acquire the star even if it is to their detriment (Erik Karlsson being the most recent example).

Their organizational philosophy is to score. To generate offense. To be creative, fast, and high flying. It has always has been that outside of a few years under Kevin Constantine. It's completely opposite of what Steelers fans hold dear. Defense, defense, defense. And you can win in hockey by playing suffocating traps and defensive structures. Plenty of teams have. But that's not the DNA of the Penguins. And it's certainly not the DNA of the Steelers or the stereotypical label given to people in Western PA.

If you only measure it on Stanley Cup titles...then yes. 5 Cups is pretty impressive.

However...the Potbellied Snow Chickens did declare bankruptcy twice. First in 1975 and again 1998 after all the big contracts they handed out after the first two cups sank the franchise financially

The team struck lightning twice getting generational talent after being the absolute worst team in the league. They were just butt awful in the early 80's. They purposedly tanked in 83/84 (much to the Devils protests) and that got them Mario and were able to add Lady Jagr after Mario was hurt and they missed the playoffs in 1990. You got the two Cups out of them and then it all went into the toilet again....having the worst attendance in the league and almost moved to Kansas City before you got Cindy and Ugly Boy in drafts that were overloaded with talent that of course did not go to the Flyers.

So...I wouldn't say you got all of that talent and titles based on being a well run franchise all of those years. There was a whole lotta luck and being in the right place at the right time on draft day in 1984, 1990, 2003, 2004 and 2005.

Not that the Flyers have anything to brag about. Booby Clarke and Drunk Paul Holmgren screwed up more often than not and had the money to do whatever and had nothing to show for it. It's disgraceful. Then Hextall really ****ed everything up and we are still working out of that mess. Old Man Ed always going after washed up veterans was always a losing proposition. Overpaying for Lindros set back the franchise and turned out to be a crap trade since we already had the better player in Forsberg and all it did was make the Colorado Avalanche an elite team while the Lindros led Flyers highest mark was getting swept in the 97 Cup finals.

They couldn't even luck into the top pick this year....the Fishsticks finished higher than the Flyers and got the top pick in the lottery.

Thank Goodness for the Iggles and Phillies.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Yinzerburgh seems like a small market but Allegheny County is 1.2 million people. They could fill the stadium if they had an owner who wanted to spend like the Phillies Middleton who still wants his effin trophy back.

Yoyd think MLB would do what the NFL did to balance out the competitiveness so it’s not Yankees/Dodgers every year..

The Hillbilly Prince isn't leaving anytime soon.

[IUPNation]

Pittsburgh and Western PA like to hold onto the past, which was clearly greater than the present. Baseball-wise, Pittsburgh is a small market in a sport where market-size matters. The Pirates probably should have relocated to Indianapolis a long time ago. As a lifelong Phillies fan, I'm not gloating. I really loved the Phillies-Pirates in-state rivalry when I was a kid. I used to enjoy going to Pirates games and loudly rooting for the Phillies. It was a lot of fun.

As for the Phillies, the current version is very interesting. They are competitive on the top level. No doubt the Mets have a great team in their division. Also, you always have to look out for the Braves. Of course, there are great teams in the NL West, too.

Right now, it probably goes under the radar if you are not a Phillies fan, but the AAA affiliate Lehigh Valley in Allentown, is arguably the best minor league team in all of baseball, so that provides additional depth. Interestingly, the emerging top player is 3B Otto Kemp, out of D2 Point Loma Nazarene, the school IUP played twice in last year's D2 World Series.

Yinzerburgh seems like a small market but Allegheny County is 1.2 million people. They could fill the stadium if they had an owner who wanted to spend like the Phillies Middleton who still wants his effin trophy back.

Yoyd think MLB would do what the NFL did to balance out the competitiveness so it’s not Yankees/Dodgers every year..

[Fightingscot82]

I challenge that notion in the bigger picture. The Pittsburgh Penguins are, in my opinion, the most successful franchise in the city. They have been most successful NHL franchise since the league's 2nd expansion in 1967. They are the winningest franchise in the NHL since 1990. Outside of the Steelers run in the 70s, there's been a ton of average football in there outside of the prime years of the Ben era. Far too few people acknowledge that.

I don't ask for everyone to agree. I'll admit that the Penguins are my first love and favorite team. I'm most invested in them compared to any other of the teams. But I think they are the most successful team in the city when you extrapolate out their life cycles. For nearly 40 years they have had arguably the best player in the world wearing a Penguins jersey.

The Penguins are the contrary to your notion. Their organization zigs to the "blue collar" mantra that many hold dear in Western PA. It's also why the hardcore Steeler lifers aren't hockey/Penguin fans (or aren't good ones or intelligent ones if they are). The Penguins are, and have always been, driven on star power. Glitz and glam. Exceptional skill. Not hardhat and lunch pale philosophy. Fortune has had a way of helping to formulate that organizational philosophy (Mario, Sid, and Jagr all via the NHL entry draft). But the Penguins DNA is to acquire the star even if it is to their detriment (Erik Karlsson being the most recent example).

Their organizational philosophy is to score. To generate offense. To be creative, fast, and high flying. It has always has been that outside of a few years under Kevin Constantine. It's completely opposite of what Steelers fans hold dear. Defense, defense, defense. And you can win in hockey by playing suffocating traps and defensive structures. Plenty of teams have. But that's not the DNA of the Penguins. And it's certainly not the DNA of the Steelers or the stereotypical label given to people in Western PA.

I agree with what you're saying. Its really hard to compare pro sports leagues between the games, league structures, and economics, too. I guess the best translation to baseball would be if the Pirates emphasized a bash brothers offense above all else. Yeah, that would put more butts in the seats. Unfortunately, baseball relies so much on pitching as a defensive position that it won't be successful. A below average goaltender can be overcome with a 5 goals/game offense just like a football team with a below average QB can still win games. In baseball, you can score 7 runs a game and still lose every one of them if your pitching is that bad.

The rub is that the top reason the Pirates aren't competitive is MLB lacks the setup of the NHL & NFL. Until there is true revenue sharing and a salary cap & floor, MLB will be financial Darwinism. Otherwise, the Pirates would need an owner to care so much about winning that they throw away millions of their personal funds to front load a payroll that increases the likelihood of winning more games and building the momentum needed to sustain revenue and increased payroll.

My prediction may be coming true in the small 3 game sample since Kelly took over the team. We've been seeing sacrifice bunts, double steals, and even old-fashioned arguing with the ump over balls & strikes! They've gone 2-1 (should have been 3-0 if not for the putrid bullpen) but its already a more satisfying brand of baseball. Hopefully the trend continues.

[IUP24]

Pittsburgh wants a Mark Cuban to come in and spend his own money to compete with where they think Pittsburgh should be comparable to the NFL and NHL. That ain't happening.

But Pittsburgh also romanticizes blue collar approaches to everyday things, so I think Kelly would win fans over in spite of the win/loss record if he takes an old-fashioned philosophy of hard accountability for baseball fundamentals and small ball offense. When was the last time you remember seeing a sac bunt or squeeze play in MLB? Almost as extinct as a spitball now that pitchers don't bat. I don't believe this front office can outsmart the payrolls of others nor do I think the roster was being mismanaged. This roster sucks, especially the bullpen.

I challenge that notion in the bigger picture. The Pittsburgh Penguins are, in my opinion, the most successful franchise in the city. They have been most successful NHL franchise since the league's 2nd expansion in 1967. They are the winningest franchise in the NHL since 1990. Outside of the Steelers run in the 70s, there's been a ton of average football in there outside of the prime years of the Ben era. Far too few people acknowledge that.

I don't ask for everyone to agree. I'll admit that the Penguins are my first love and favorite team. I'm most invested in them compared to any other of the teams. But I think they are the most successful team in the city when you extrapolate out their life cycles. For nearly 40 years they have had arguably the best player in the world wearing a Penguins jersey.

The Penguins are the contrary to your notion. Their organization zigs to the "blue collar" mantra that many hold dear in Western PA. It's also why the hardcore Steeler lifers aren't hockey/Penguin fans (or aren't good ones or intelligent ones if they are). The Penguins are, and have always been, driven on star power. Glitz and glam. Exceptional skill. Not hardhat and lunch pale philosophy. Fortune has had a way of helping to formulate that organizational philosophy (Mario, Sid, and Jagr all via the NHL entry draft). But the Penguins DNA is to acquire the star even if it is to their detriment (Erik Karlsson being the most recent example).

Their organizational philosophy is to score. To generate offense. To be creative, fast, and high flying. It has always has been that outside of a few years under Kevin Constantine. It's completely opposite of what Steelers fans hold dear. Defense, defense, defense. And you can win in hockey by playing suffocating traps and defensive structures. Plenty of teams have. But that's not the DNA of the Penguins. And it's certainly not the DNA of the Steelers or the stereotypical label given to people in Western PA.

[TheBigCat2192]

That roster is so, so terrible.

In reality, half the active roster should be in AAA.

He can't be any worse than Shelton.

Shelton is the sort of hothead you don’t see in the dugout too much any more especially when it comes to HBP. I don’t think he was destined for much more time as a manager unless he actually started winning trophies.

[Fightingscot82]

Pittsburgh and Western PA likes to hold onto the past, which was clearly greater than the present. Baseball-wise, Pittsburgh is a small market in a sport where market-size matters. The Pirates probably should have relocated to Indianapolis a long time ago. As a lifelong Phillies fan, I'm not gloating. I really loved the Phillies-Pirates in-state rivalry when I was a kid. I used to enjoy going to Pirates games and loudly rooting for the Phillies. It was a lot of fun.

As for the Phillies, the current version is very interesting. They are competitive on the top level. No doubt the Mets have a great team in their division. Also, you always have to look out for the Braves. Of course, there are great teams in the NL West, too.

Right now, it probably goes under the radar if you are not a Phillies fan, but the AAA affiliate Lehigh Valley in Allentown, is arguably the best minor league team in all of baseball, so that provides additional depth. Interestingly, the emerging top player is 3B Otto Kemp, out of D2 Point Loma Nazarene, the school IUP played twice in last year's D2 World Series.

I'm now old, but I do miss the MLB of the decade leading up to the strike and expansion. The rivalries with Philadelphia and NY Mets. The small ball strategies and unwritten rules of retaliation. Owner collusion to balance competition. If only we could have all of that with the new ballparks.

[iupgroundhog]

Pittsburgh wants a Mark Cuban to come in and spend his own money to compete with where they think Pittsburgh should be comparable to the NFL and NHL. That ain't happening.

But Pittsburgh also romanticizes blue collar approaches to everyday things, so I think Kelly would win fans over in spite of the win/loss record if he takes an old-fashioned philosophy of hard accountability for baseball fundamentals and small ball offense. When was the last time you remember seeing a sac bunt or squeeze play in MLB? Almost as extinct as a spitball now that pitchers don't bat. I don't believe this front office can outsmart the payrolls of others nor do I think the roster was being mismanaged. This roster sucks, especially the bullpen.

Pittsburgh and Western PA like to hold onto the past, which was clearly greater than the present. Baseball-wise, Pittsburgh is a small market in a sport where market-size matters. The Pirates probably should have relocated to Indianapolis a long time ago. As a lifelong Phillies fan, I'm not gloating. I really loved the Phillies-Pirates in-state rivalry when I was a kid. I used to enjoy going to Pirates games and loudly rooting for the Phillies. It was a lot of fun.

As for the Phillies, the current version is very interesting. They are competitive on the top level. No doubt the Mets have a great team in their division. Also, you always have to look out for the Braves. Of course, there are great teams in the NL West, too.

Right now, it probably goes under the radar if you are not a Phillies fan, but the AAA affiliate Lehigh Valley in Allentown, is arguably the best minor league team in all of baseball, so that provides additional depth. Interestingly, the emerging top player is 3B Otto Kemp, out of D2 Point Loma Nazarene, the school IUP played twice in last year's D2 World Series.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Pittsburgh wants a Mark Cuban to come in and spend his own money to compete with where they think Pittsburgh should be comparable to the NFL and NHL. That ain't happening.

But Pittsburgh also romanticizes blue collar approaches to everyday things, so I think Kelly would win fans over in spite of the win/loss record if he takes an old-fashioned philosophy of hard accountability for baseball fundamentals and small ball offense. When was the last time you remember seeing a sac bunt or squeeze play in MLB? Almost as extinct as a spitball now that pitchers don't bat. I don't believe this front office can outsmart the payrolls of others nor do I think the roster was being mismanaged. This roster sucks, especially the bullpen.

Oneil and Skenes are counting down the days.

[Fightingscot82]

That roster is so, so terrible.

In reality, half the active roster should be in AAA.

He can't be any worse than Shelton.

Pittsburgh wants a Mark Cuban to come in and spend his own money to compete with where they think Pittsburgh should be comparable to the NFL and NHL. That ain't happening.

But Pittsburgh also romanticizes blue collar approaches to everyday things, so I think Kelly would win fans over in spite of the win/loss record if he takes an old-fashioned philosophy of hard accountability for baseball fundamentals and small ball offense. When was the last time you remember seeing a sac bunt or squeeze play in MLB? Almost as extinct as a spitball now that pitchers don't bat. I don't believe this front office can outsmart the payrolls of others nor do I think the roster was being mismanaged. This roster sucks, especially the bullpen.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

OT to the OT, in other pro sports news...

Succos yesterday canned manager Derek Shelton. Elevated bench coach Don Kelly to take his place. Kelly went to Mt. Lebanon and played at Point Park. Utility player in the majors with a reputation for playing ball the mid-century way, hitting for contact and striking out very little. If that style translates to managing, I'll be happy.

That roster is so, so terrible.

In reality, half the active roster should be in AAA.

He can't be any worse than Shelton.

[Fightingscot82]

OT to the OT, in other pro sports news...

Succos yesterday canned manager Derek Shelton. Elevated bench coach Don Kelly to take his place. Kelly went to Mt. Lebanon and played at Point Park. Utility player in the majors with a reputation for playing ball the mid-century way, hitting for contact and striking out very little. If that style translates to managing, I'll be happy.