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  • #46
    Re: Saggy Head Coach Cannidates

    Originally posted by BulldogFanatic View Post
    Just read that Isiah Dunning is going to join him at SVSU. Looks like Isiah just got a new job at Butler a few weeks ago, and is leaving that to go coach with Brady. Both have allendale school ties, but where they there during the same time?? Just wondering why the connection....Why leave a DI program to go back to DII?
    The Butlers, Valpos, Drakes of the world, though technically “D1”.....probably arent as attractive to coach at as you might think. From coaches I’ve spoken to leaving a D2 school to coach in the Pioneer league is a lateral move....at best. Pay isn’t any better and those programs are often an afterthought when compared to basketball at most PLeague schools.
    Last edited by HoundDog; 03-26-2019, 06:16 PM.

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    • #47
      Re: Saggy Head Coach Cannidates

      Originally posted by Redwing View Post
      Not that I know of. I thought Dunning was a player like 5 years ago? It's been 10+ since Brady has been with the program. No clue if they've kept in touch.
      Dunning played from 2011-2014 and was in the 2010 recruiting class (Mitchell's first class)

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      • #48
        Re: Saggy Head Coach Cannidates

        Originally posted by HoundDog View Post
        The Butlers, Valpos, Drakes of the world, though technically “D1”.....probably arent as attractive to coach at as you might think. From coaches I’ve spoken to leaving a D2 school to coach in the Pioneer league is a lateral move....at best. Pay isn’t any better and those programs are often an afterthought when compared to basketball at most PLeague schools.
        Totally agree. While the Pioneer League is D1, it is "non-scholarship" D1. Just isn't as much money involved there in pretty much every facet of the program.

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        • #49
          Re: Saggy Head Coach Cannidates

          I think people underestimate how much d2 schools like Ferris and SVSU, along with many other GLIAC schools, are struggling financially. Gvsu is in a world of their own with maybe only Ashland and Wayne being anywhere close financially.

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          • #50
            Re: Saggy Head Coach Cannidates

            Where do you come up with that info? What info are you referencing for your statement. DU may more money that anyone even imagines.

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            • #51
              Re: Saggy Head Coach Cannidates

              Originally posted by Gliac1 View Post
              I think people underestimate how much d2 schools like Ferris and SVSU, along with many other GLIAC schools, are struggling financially. Gvsu is in a world of their own with maybe only Ashland and Wayne being anywhere close financially.
              This analysis seems very far off-base considering Ashland has been considering dropping teams for years now because they don't have money.

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              • #52
                Re: Saggy Head Coach Cannidates

                Originally posted by Gliac1 View Post
                I think people underestimate how much d2 schools like Ferris and SVSU, along with many other GLIAC schools, are struggling financially. Gvsu is in a world of their own with maybe only Ashland and Wayne being anywhere close financially.
                GVSU is an anomaly for Division II. Donations are key to funding an athletic program and GVSU is surrounded by generous donors throughout Grand Rapids that give even when they're not alumni because they see GVSU's importance for the region. Davenport has a lot of generous donors as well. Ashland has donors, but they're struggling financially. It would seem that the donors only give to the football program while the athletic program as a whole has taken a hit financially. I couldn't tell you anything about Wayne State. They're the highest funded D2 school in the state, but their football facilities are lacking to be sure. Seems like I have read elsewhere that they have improved things for the athletic program as a whole though.

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                • #53
                  Re: Saggy Head Coach Cannidates

                  Originally posted by BeachinLaker View Post
                  GVSU is an anomaly for Division II. Donations are key to funding an athletic program and GVSU is surrounded by generous donors throughout Grand Rapids that give even when they're not alumni because they see GVSU's importance for the region. Davenport has a lot of generous donors as well. Ashland has donors, but they're struggling financially. It would seem that the donors only give to the football program while the athletic program as a whole has taken a hit financially. I couldn't tell you anything about Wayne State. They're the highest funded D2 school in the state, but their football facilities are lacking to be sure. Seems like I have read elsewhere that they have improved things for the athletic program as a whole though.
                  Wayne State has improved their football and athletic facilities in recent years but in general funding for WSU athletics lags well behind Grand Valley and I suspect some other GLIAC schools as well. Wayne State may be the highest funded D2 school in the state but that is funding for the university as a whole not athletics.
                  Wayne State doesn't get the level of support from alumni and other donors that GV gets in part because their athletic program is nearly invisible within the Detroit metro area. The Detroit media gives great coverage to Michigan and MSU but says next to nothing about Wayne State.
                  Last edited by WayneStatesman; 04-06-2019, 07:00 AM.

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                  • #54
                    Re: Saggy Head Coach Cannidates

                    Originally posted by WayneStatesman View Post
                    Wayne State has improved their football and athletic facilities in recent years but in general funding for WSU athletics lags well behind Grand Valley and I suspect some other GLIAC schools as well. Wayne State may be the highest funded D2 school in the state but that is funding for the university as a whole not athletics.
                    Wayne State doesn't get the level of support from alumni and other donors that GV gets in part because their athletic program is nearly invisible within the Detroit metro area. The Detroit media gives great coverage to Michigan and MSU but says next to nothing about Wayne State.
                    For those who think they know about the funding of college sports programs, I would suggest the following website.

                    https://ope.ed.gov/athletics/#/

                    I did a comparison of the athletic departments from GVSU, WSU, SVSU and Ashland.

                    GVSU has by far the largest athletic department in terms of student athletes with 815, followed by Ashland (616), SVSU (603) and WSU (407). I will give my opinion about this a few moments.

                    When it comes to coaching salaries, on a full time equivilency basis, WSU actually has the highest pay rate, with an FTE being worth $111K, GVSU is at 98K, SVSU $73K and Ashland $62K.

                    The difference between the programs isn't really in coaching salaries or number of participants. The difference can actually be found in two different sets of numbers.

                    Recruiting expenses: GVSU spent $163K in recruiting expenses in 2017, compared with $83K for SVSU, $75K for Ashland, and only $57K for WSU.

                    The most important number is the expenses. GVSU is the dominating program in the GLIAC because of this number. GVSU's total expenses for all men's and women's teams is roughly 10.8 million per year. This amounts to an average of $557 per enrolled student. WSU spends a total of 8.3 million and an average of $675 per enrolled student. SVSU spends 6.1 million for an average of $935 per student athlete. Ashland spends $6.4 million for an average of $1,991 per enrolled student.

                    What does this mean? It means GVSU's larger size provides a huge benefit. The amounts given were based on the total school enrollment. GVSU actually spends less per student than any of the other schools. Why is this? With a larger enrollment comes additional possibilities. A quick look at attendance in the GLIAC explains a lot of this. GVSU's football team actually turns a "profit" based on revenues over $3 million with expenses of $2.6 million. This is largely due to the location (biggest program in a city with no major college and no major professional team), and school enrollment. Alums, friends of students, ect pay to attend games. The other GLIAC schools simply don't have the advantages GVSU has.

                    Now, the numbers can be played with even in reports to the government. An example is the not allocated revenues and not allocated expenses. Most schools these numbers are equal. (GVSU dumps more in than expenses require) These numbers normally reflect the money dumped into the athletic program from the schools general fund or student fees designated for athletics.

                    WSU actually provides the most institutional support, followed by GVSU, SVSU and Ashland. When you look at the not allocated revenue based on school enrollment, the following trend is again present. GVSU dumps $190 into the athletic department (34.1% of the total expenses is covered by the school). For WSU, the number is $386 per student (57.2%). SVSU is $284 per student going to athletics (30.3%) while Ashland's budget inputs are $457 per student, but only 23% of the total expenses) .

                    What this tells me is that GVSU's size provides a huge advantage.

                    This is why other schools in the GLIAC have been or are adding programs. The programs can increase the overall school revenue more than the cost of the program itself. SVSU men's and women's swimming, NMU's several additions, and WSU's addition of women's track and field.

                    One of the problems is schools can make poor choices about programs to add. WSU's decision to offer hockey I suspect was a bad decision and took the athletic department years to overcome. GVSU appears to be doing things in a proper manner, with the school adding sports slowly in an effort to grow enrollment. Added enrollment means added students attending the school, normally substantially in excess of the number of scholarships the school provides. This means additional overall revenue for the school. This can often been witnessed at the D3 level where schools often have more sports offerings than at the D1 or D2 levels.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Saggy Head Coach Cannidates

                      Originally posted by chapmaja View Post
                      For those who think they know about the funding of college sports programs, I would suggest the following website.

                      https://ope.ed.gov/athletics/#/

                      I did a comparison of the athletic departments from GVSU, WSU, SVSU and Ashland.

                      GVSU has by far the largest athletic department in terms of student athletes with 815, followed by Ashland (616), SVSU (603) and WSU (407). I will give my opinion about this a few moments.

                      When it comes to coaching salaries, on a full time equivilency basis, WSU actually has the highest pay rate, with an FTE being worth $111K, GVSU is at 98K, SVSU $73K and Ashland $62K.

                      The difference between the programs isn't really in coaching salaries or number of participants. The difference can actually be found in two different sets of numbers.

                      Recruiting expenses: GVSU spent $163K in recruiting expenses in 2017, compared with $83K for SVSU, $75K for Ashland, and only $57K for WSU.

                      The most important number is the expenses. GVSU is the dominating program in the GLIAC because of this number. GVSU's total expenses for all men's and women's teams is roughly 10.8 million per year. This amounts to an average of $557 per enrolled student. WSU spends a total of 8.3 million and an average of $675 per enrolled student. SVSU spends 6.1 million for an average of $935 per student athlete. Ashland spends $6.4 million for an average of $1,991 per enrolled student.

                      What does this mean? It means GVSU's larger size provides a huge benefit. The amounts given were based on the total school enrollment. GVSU actually spends less per student than any of the other schools. Why is this? With a larger enrollment comes additional possibilities. A quick look at attendance in the GLIAC explains a lot of this. GVSU's football team actually turns a "profit" based on revenues over $3 million with expenses of $2.6 million. This is largely due to the location (biggest program in a city with no major college and no major professional team), and school enrollment. Alums, friends of students, ect pay to attend games. The other GLIAC schools simply don't have the advantages GVSU has.

                      Now, the numbers can be played with even in reports to the government. An example is the not allocated revenues and not allocated expenses. Most schools these numbers are equal. (GVSU dumps more in than expenses require) These numbers normally reflect the money dumped into the athletic program from the schools general fund or student fees designated for athletics.

                      WSU actually provides the most institutional support, followed by GVSU, SVSU and Ashland. When you look at the not allocated revenue based on school enrollment, the following trend is again present. GVSU dumps $190 into the athletic department (34.1% of the total expenses is covered by the school). For WSU, the number is $386 per student (57.2%). SVSU is $284 per student going to athletics (30.3%) while Ashland's budget inputs are $457 per student, but only 23% of the total expenses) .

                      What this tells me is that GVSU's size provides a huge advantage.

                      This is why other schools in the GLIAC have been or are adding programs. The programs can increase the overall school revenue more than the cost of the program itself. SVSU men's and women's swimming, NMU's several additions, and WSU's addition of women's track and field.

                      One of the problems is schools can make poor choices about programs to add. WSU's decision to offer hockey I suspect was a bad decision and took the athletic department years to overcome. GVSU appears to be doing things in a proper manner, with the school adding sports slowly in an effort to grow enrollment. Added enrollment means added students attending the school, normally substantially in excess of the number of scholarships the school provides. This means additional overall revenue for the school. This can often been witnessed at the D3 level where schools often have more sports offerings than at the D1 or D2 levels.
                      So you are saying that leadership actually does matter. I think GVSU is the youngest of any of the GLIAC teams and yet with great leadership has grown at steady clip. WSU has WAY more people around the campus and I would argue that SVSU has a decent population around them also. At a point 30 years ago SVSU had a bigger population than GVSU I would guess but anyway...GVSU has had great leadership in the AD office and I truly believe that is where the difference is. Say what you want but winning brings in money. Thanks for your post..WSU salary might be a little skewed due to Winters big contract. Would be interesting to see Ashlands numbers too..

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                      • #56
                        Re: Saggy Head Coach Cannidates

                        Originally posted by chapmaja View Post

                        One of the problems is schools can make poor choices about programs to add. WSU's decision to offer hockey I suspect was a bad decision and took the athletic department years to overcome. GVSU appears to be doing things in a proper manner, with the school adding sports slowly in an effort to grow enrollment. Added enrollment means added students attending the school, normally substantially in excess of the number of scholarships the school provides. This means additional overall revenue for the school. This can often been witnessed at the D3 level where schools often have more sports offerings than at the D1 or D2 levels.
                        As far as I know, when WSU added Men's hockey, I think that there was an expectation from the administration for them to get into then CCHA, which they would have been ideally in the CCHA footprint considering how close they are to Michigan, Michigan State, Bowling Green, Ferris State, Ohio State, Miami of Ohio, LSSU, NMU, and the outlier Alaska Fairbanks. Findlay added a program around about the same time and they both probably thought that they would be paired up to join the CCHA. But the other schools probably weren't all that keen on losing games against the Big Ten schools and going into either a small arena at Findlay, or the problems that WSU had with getting an on Campus arena built and playing out at the State Fairgrounds. The Colosseum there was a nice enough arena, just too far from campus. Supposedly they had a handshake deal with Mr. Illiach to build an arena at WSU that the Wings could use as their practice rink and be WSU's home ice as well. But it never happened.

                        Lack of CCHA play pretty much relegated them to the CHA, which was really a loose collection of schools from across the country that were just playing in it because they couldn't get into another league and they at least realized that if they formed a league, they could get regular games play, and an automatic NCAA bid for wining the conference tournament. Then they were kinda stuck in a catch-22. They would have all liked to leave the CHA as it meant road trips to Colorado(Air Force), Alabama(Huntsville), Minnesota(Bemidji), and Pittsburgh(Robert Morris). But none of the other conferences really wanted to bring in those teams because then the worry was that they would likely kill off CHA hockey and hockey at those schools. Findlay soon folded up shop, and the league staggered on for a while when Air Force left to go to Atlantic Hockey so that they could play Army more regularly, and compete in a more stable league that they felt was a little more fair to them given how Air Force guys need to serve a few years after they graduate college. There was some talk of the big conferences shuffling things around, having OSU anchor a more Ohio-PA-Western NY league, but it never happened, and WSU opted to ax the program.

                        Soon after that, Penn State had a huge Donor come through and paid for a new on campus arena in Happy Valley. That meant that the Big Ten had 6 hockey schools playing so they all opted out of their conferences to become the BTHC, which hasn't been the big juggernaut that they thought that they would be. Some of the bigger schools left in the WCHA and CCHA opted to take their puck and form their own conference with the idea that Notre Dame was coming with them, but the Golden Domers fooled everyone and jumped to Hockey East. The rest of the scraps in the west kinda reformed under the WCHA banner, but it all means that the BTHC, NCHC, and WCHA teams are all doing a lot more traveling than what they were doing under the old WCHA-CCHA-CHA system.

                        Had WSU just held out for a few more years, they could have ended up in the new WCHA, which would have meant game at Ferris State, LSSU, NMU, MTU, Mankato, Bowling Green, Alabama-Huntsville, and the 2 Alaska schools. Still kinda a travel heavy league, but a lot more stable of a league, and with their location, they would have had easier times getting flights that got them to Alaska than the other schools who would have to bus at least an hour to an airport for a flight.
                        Last edited by bigmrg74; 04-07-2019, 09:41 PM.

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                        • #57
                          Re: Saggy Head Coach Cannidates

                          Thanks bigmrg74 for the info. I never knew any of this stuff about the WSU hockey program. I always wondered what was happening behind the scenes. All I knew was a quote I saw from the AD when the program was axed stating he didn't get the support from "backers" he expected to get. As I mentioned in a previous post the coverage by Detroit media of WSU athletics is abysmal. Nothing even close to what you posted ever appeared in local media sources. In fact I don't think either the Detroit Free Press or News bothered to mention the program's cancellation. I found out the program was cancelled when I accidentally ran across a publication that covers the local Detroit amateur hockey scene.

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                          • #58
                            Re: Saggy Head Coach Cannidates

                            For those who think they know about the funding of college sports programs, I would suggest the following website.

                            https://ope.ed.gov/athletics/#/

                            I took a look at the web site you suggested. I looked at "grand total expenses" for all the GLIAC schools that play football. I was indeed surprised to see WSU was second only to GVSU in total expenditure on athletics. I guess money obviously doesn't always translate into results-but at least the money is there.

                            One problem Wayne State has had historically for decades that is not true now is a series of university presidents that were anti sports. They were very reluctant to increase spending or even adequately fund athletics. This is not true today, the previous president and current president are very supportive of athletics but we are playing catch-up to make up for previous administrations.

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