West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

A lot of it is geography. What is the competition level, etc.

At IUP, for example, we got about 1,300 on average this year. That's not a bad D2 number, but the problem is we have a 4,000+ seat arena. That number also had a few big hits late in the year that drove it up. It was under 1,000 for a long time. Keep in mind IUP averaged over 2,000 just a few years back. Ticket prices at IUP are ridiculous and that's a well-discussed topic.

But, by and large, I think the schools at this level do an exceptionally poor job of selling the programs -- and also the experience. I can't count how many times I've had friends in and taken them to an IUP game. Every game, by halftime, they all say the same thing ... 'wow, these guys can play'. Toss in IUP has two bars inside the KCAC and a Hilton bar 20' from the front door ... and it becomes a fun night. But, that's the perfect example of the public perception of D2 basketball. My friends are always, literally, shocked when they see a game. It's like they are expecting a glorified intramural game full of 5'9" players.

Western PA is its own animal. It's a 'pro' area. The Penguins and Steelers rule the roost for much of basketball season. Pitt basketball, in the not so distant past, was the hottest ticket in the city. So, there's a lot of indirect competition. Even WVU draws a lot of basketball fans from Pittsburgh as it is close by and there is a huge alumni base here.

Basketball at the D2 level is also over-saturated in our region. I really believe, however, if you can just get people in the door one time ... they will come back. It's a great product. At most schools, it's very cheap to attend. Attending college sporting events is a culture. For schools in our region ... they just have to figure out how to build that culture.

I go to a lot of road games. Take Gannon for example. The average age in the Hammermill is probably close to 60 years old. Yes, you need that demographic. They give the most money in a lot of cases. But, how do you attract: A) students and B) the highly-coveted family demographic?

You have to change it from a 'game' to an 'event' ... that's the key to building that culture.

[Columbuseer]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Agree with you about the "aura" of playing D1....But conversely, I think it's more of players wanting to play in the March Madness Tourney (very difficult as a mid major) rather than going d2...Realistically, the fringe players we are talking about are MAC School, or Northeast conference (think robert Morris) D1'ers...and not the Power 5 players...I think the top 10 D2 teams could compete for the conference title with the Robert Morrises and St Francises and Bucknell's of the world... And most HS players have a fanaticism with the tourney vs playing D2....

No one goes to D2 games...but the basketball is GOOD! ANd personally, I'd rather play on a top 20 or top 30 d2 team than be 9th or 10th man on a low D1 team...DRIVES ME CRAZY the decisions that kids make...Delusions of playing in the tourney and lesser extent chasing NBA dreams, I think

[IUP Extra Mile]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

IUP big-I replied to Columbuseer's post before scrolling down to the bottom of the messages, and your take and my take are very similar....

kindred spirits....

[IUP Extra Mile]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Just looking at the roster, I would guess that we have room for at least 2 more players.
Whether we sign more players, I have no information.
My guess is that the D2 recruiting picture in general gets clearer after the D1 signing period is completed (starts April 11 and goes for about a week, I think).

D1 rant follows:
Some players are so enamored of the status of playing D1 that they would rather play on a lousy D1 team than play on a good D2 team that would better develop their skills for Europe. IMHO, many parents and kids are biased toward D1 because they have unrealistic NBA expectations. Many kids would be better served by playing on a well-coached D2 team.

My view is that NBA players are first born, then made; By that I mean is that a mix of factors such as height, body type, quickness, ratio of fast twitch muscles to slow twitch muscles, etc. are predominantly inherited and are necessary prerequisites (but not sufficient) to make it to the NBA. If one has those, then skill development of muscle memory through repetition, basketball iq, good coaching and opportunity will determine if one makes it to the NBA.

Agree with you about the "aura" of playing D1....But conversely, I think it's more of players wanting to play in the March Madness Tourney (very difficult as a mid major) rather than going d2...Realistically, the fringe players we are talking about are MAC School, or Northeast conference (think robert Morris) D1'ers...and not the Power 5 players...I think the top 10 D2 teams could compete for the conference title with the Robert Morrises and St Francises and Bucknell's of the world... And most HS players have a fanaticism with the tourney vs playing D2....

No one goes to D2 games...but the basketball is GOOD! ANd personally, I'd rather play on a top 20 or top 30 d2 team than be 9th or 10th man on a low D1 team...DRIVES ME CRAZY the decisions that kids make...Delusions of playing in the tourney and lesser extent chasing NBA dreams, I think

[Columbuseer]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

College basketball is so different today than it was even just 15 years ago. The AAU influence has crippled the game. The transfer has also majorly hurt it. One-and-done sure doesn't help, either. Imagine the great Michigan State teams of the early 80s or Phi Slamma Jamma playing these current top D1 teams. It would be a massacre.

There's about 400 players in the NBA ... on the entire Earth. The odds of even P5 players sticking in the NBA are terrible.

That said, I don't think all that get D1 offers think they are going to the NBA. It's a status thing to a large extent. D1 programs look at D2 the way we look at D3. However, the reality is the top-tier D2 programs could easily play with the lower-end D1 programs. The top D3 programs could play with the bottom of D2, also. That said, the Top D2 teams would get run out of the building against the top D1 teams. Our current champion, Ferris State, would probably lose by 40+ to Villanova or Duke in a real game.

The crop of players I find most interesting are the ones I call the bus riders. The ends of the D1 bench. Those kids choose to live the lifestyle and ride pine for four years rather than 'play' in D2. I can't tell you how many 'D1' transfers I've seen over the years enter our ranks. Everybody gets so excited. Then the season starts and it's real clear they were D2 all along. There are exceptions, obviously. In the same tone, there are plenty of D2 players who could easily play up. In our cases, take guys like Seger or Brandon Norfleet ... both easily could have played at top mid-majors (or perhaps higher). They were late bloomers.

I don't think I'd watch an NBA game if somebody paid me. I think in many ways current D2 basketball is a throwback to what D1 basketball was like back in the 80s -- when it was still nice to watch and had fluidity ... not all dunks and 40' trey chucks.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

College basketball is so different today than it was even just 15 years ago. The AAU influence has crippled the game. The transfer has also majorly hurt it. One-and-done sure doesn't help, either. Imagine the great Michigan State teams of the early 80s or Phi Slamma Jamma playing these current top D1 teams. It would be a massacre.

There's about 400 players in the NBA ... on the entire Earth. The odds of even P5 players sticking in the NBA are terrible.

That said, I don't think all that get D1 offers think they are going to the NBA. It's a status thing to a large extent. D1 programs look at D2 the way we look at D3. However, the reality is the top-tier D2 programs could easily play with the lower-end D1 programs. The top D3 programs could play with the bottom of D2, also. That said, the Top D2 teams would get run out of the building against the top D1 teams. Our current champion, Ferris State, would probably lose by 40+ to Villanova or Duke in a real game.

The crop of players I find most interesting are the ones I call the bus riders. The ends of the D1 bench. Those kids choose to live the lifestyle and ride pine for four years rather than 'play' in D2. I can't tell you how many 'D1' transfers I've seen over the years enter our ranks. Everybody gets so excited. Then the season starts and it's real clear they were D2 all along. There are exceptions, obviously. In the same tone, there are plenty of D2 players who could easily play up. In our cases, take guys like Seger or Brandon Norfleet ... both easily could have played at top mid-majors (or perhaps higher). They were late bloomers.

I don't think I'd watch an NBA game if somebody paid me. I think in many ways current D2 basketball is a throwback to what D1 basketball was like back in the 80s -- when it was still nice to watch and had fluidity ... not all dunks and 40' trey chucks.

[Columbuseer]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

So, Eer and Boat, think we get one or two more basketball recruits for next year?

Just looking at the roster, I would guess that we have room for at least 2 more players.
Whether we sign more players, I have no information.
My guess is that the D2 recruiting picture in general gets clearer after the D1 signing period is completed (starts April 11 and goes for about a week, I think).

D1 rant follows:
Some players are so enamored of the status of playing D1 that they would rather play on a lousy D1 team than play on a good D2 team that would better develop their skills for Europe. IMHO, many parents and kids are biased toward D1 because they have unrealistic NBA expectations. Many kids would be better served by playing on a well-coached D2 team.

My view is that NBA players are first born, then made; By that I mean is that a mix of factors such as height, body type, quickness, ratio of fast twitch muscles to slow twitch muscles, etc. are predominantly inherited and are necessary prerequisites (but not sufficient) to make it to the NBA. If one has those, then skill development of muscle memory through repetition, basketball iq, good coaching and opportunity will determine if one makes it to the NBA.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Don't forget about the announced-then-unannounced offer to Lock Haven transfer T. Brake.

[Sportsnut]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

So, Eer and Boat, think we get one or two more basketball recruits for next year?

[Columbuseer]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Work o free throws...YEP! I'd rather him NOT work on his 3's. Rather see him focus on working on rebound positioning and defense!!!

Good points. Historically everyone had the green light to shoot the 3 regardless of position. Would you agree a demphasis of the 3 at the inside position would be a departure from the current philosophy? Both approaches have their pros and cons.
Btw the inside offense, rebounding and positioning are already very strong ( for high school level) at least in the game I saw.

[boatcapt]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Good info. I think I have seen him play grove city. High motor, great inside but he will need to work on shooting form both free throw and probably 3s.

Work o free throws...YEP! I'd rather him NOT work on his 3's. Rather see him focus on working on rebound positioning and defense!!!

[Columbuseer]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

I'll say the same about Carey as I said about Humpharies...Really good player that could be a steal for us. But he is a freshman and freshmen, even really good ones, often struggle. I hate depending on a freshman to come in and lead a team.

He has ability and could be very good as a freahman but I'd prefer to have an experienced PG who can let Carey mature and grow into the starting lineup.

If you are getting Kool Aid, get cherry flavor...nice rosey red color! I drank tons of it during the Amedro era of WLU football!!!!!

On a side note, I heard WLU has had some conversations with a PF from Reynoldsburg.

Good info. I think I have seen him play grove city. High motor, great inside but he will need to work on shooting form both free throw and probably 3s.

[boatcapt]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Chuckle WAS the most celebrated recruit but he has passed the torch to Sincere Carry who was a finalist for Mr. Basketball and excelled against teams with D1 signees. Darn, I just ran out of kool-aid. Heading off to store to resupply lol.

I'll say the same about Carey as I said about Humpharies...Really good player that could be a steal for us. But he is a freshman and freshmen, even really good ones, often struggle. I hate depending on a freshman to come in and lead a team.

He has ability and could be very good as a freahman but I'd prefer to have an experienced PG who can let Carey mature and grow into the starting lineup.

If you are getting Kool Aid, get cherry flavor...nice rosey red color! I drank tons of it during the Amedro era of WLU football!!!!!

On a side note, I heard WLU has had some conversations with a PF from Reynoldsburg.

[Columbuseer]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

lol ...

One thing for sure ... he's the most celebrated incoming freshman in the history of this message board. Give him credit .. he's had staying power on here, too.

If he does sign at IUP ... it's going to be for a role and he should thrive in that role. He won't be looked upon to be 'the man' or anything. Not this coming year, anyway. The following year (his senior year) he'd play a much bigger part.

Chuckle WAS the most celebrated recruit but he has passed the torch to Sincere Carry who was a finalist for Mr. Basketball and excelled against teams with D1 signees. Darn, I just ran out of kool-aid. Heading off to store to resupply lol.

[boatcapt]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

He may do well as a role player but it certainly doesn't seem like he, or his entourage, see him as such. I wonder how "happy" he would be comming off the bench or being the 3rd or 4th scoring option?