Iup basketball

[Chuck Norris]

Re: Iup basketball

See Gary Edwards years. He scheduled just about every Penn State-Podunk branch campus out there.

He did play some cream-puffs. I'll give you that. BUT ... the PSAC was much smaller then. As you recall conference games didn't even start back then until after Christmas. I remember him telling me once they had to play a lot of those PSU-types just to fill out the schedules because there wasn't enough money to bring in opponents from a farther distance. In that era, too, all the West schools played those teams so essentially they all got a couple freebies. There was no Gannon, UPJ, Mercyhurst or Seton Hill back then.

Many of you know I'm a big fan of Edwards. Due to the ending, which was 'cloudier' than many realize, I think we tend to forget how successful he was at IUP. In 10 seasons he went 206-88 (.701), won 3 PSAC titles and won three Regional titles (including the 2001-02 Final Four appearance).

History doesn't talk about that 01-02 team often but that team went to the Final Four with 7 players (literally ... that's all that played). He also was very successful in an era when the West was much, much stronger. Cal was big-time. Clarion, believe it or not, was a power. Edinboro was very solid. Different era. Nobody ran the table then. It was a very exciting era in PSAC West basketball. Nothing to this day even comes close to the IUP vs. Cal games from, say, 1994 through 2003. It's hard to imagine an IUP men's game that you needed to be in your seat early in the women's game to make sure you had a seat for the men's game.

For all his perceived faults, Gary was a master on the big stage. He won big games when they counted the most. For the younger crowd ... if you think Kevin Reynolds is annoying ... Gary was on a different level. He drove opposing fans crazy.

I'd still take a 'big game' any day in the Field House over the KCAC. The noise level and atmosphere don't even compare.

I can only recall 2 regional championships under Gary. The Mike Beckles led team that caught fire in the regional and won their games by about 30 points each and the Dennis Mimms team.

I thought IUP currently stood at 6 regional championships, two each under Kanaskie, Gary and Joe. Am I forgetting one?

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: Iup basketball

It's entirely possible that this is 100% accurate. But if I'm gonna give one side the benefit of the doubt, I'll just look at the non conference schedules IUP plays under Joe vs what West Lib played under Crutch. Absolutely no comparison. Joe has all the leverage here. He doesn't need West Lib in order to put together a formidable non con schedule. Never has, never will. Conversely all we've heard for years from the West Lib camp is the whining about how no one will play them. Well, apparently the offer was there. Was it a bit of a strong arming attempt on Joe's part if all the details are true? Yeah it was. And I don't blame him. IUP built him a big fancy arena and he's trying to fill it.



Playing Fairmont State or Wheeling is just as good. As IUP24 said with Joe and Crutch you had two giant egos trying to make something happen. The odds weren't good of it happening. There is a definite benefit to keeping one top-tier MEC team on the schedule. Granted, IUP lost the game the past two years but that run is about to end. It's a great SOS boost if anything else. And, you're right, Joe's non-conference schedules are always challenging.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: Iup basketball

See Gary Edwards years. He scheduled just about every Penn State-Podunk branch campus out there.

He did play some cream-puffs. I'll give you that. BUT ... the PSAC was much smaller then. As you recall conference games didn't even start back then until after Christmas. I remember him telling me once they had to play a lot of those PSU-types just to fill out the schedules because there wasn't enough money to bring in opponents from a farther distance. In that era, too, all the West schools played those teams so essentially they all got a couple freebies. There was no Gannon, UPJ, Mercyhurst or Seton Hill back then.

Many of you know I'm a big fan of Edwards. Due to the ending, which was 'cloudier' than many realize, I think we tend to forget how successful he was at IUP. In 10 seasons he went 206-88 (.701), won 3 PSAC titles and won three Regional titles (including the 2001-02 Final Four appearance).

History doesn't talk about that 01-02 team often but that team went to the Final Four with 7 players (literally ... that's all that played). He also was very successful in an era when the West was much, much stronger. Cal was big-time. Clarion, believe it or not, was a power. Edinboro was very solid. Different era. Nobody ran the table then. It was a very exciting era in PSAC West basketball. Nothing to this day even comes close to the IUP vs. Cal games from, say, 1994 through 2003. It's hard to imagine an IUP men's game that you needed to be in your seat early in the women's game to make sure you had a seat for the men's game.

For all his perceived faults, Gary was a master on the big stage. He won big games when they counted the most. For the younger crowd ... if you think Kevin Reynolds is annoying ... Gary was on a different level. He drove opposing fans crazy.

I'd still take a 'big game' any day in the Field House over the KCAC. The noise level and atmosphere don't even compare.

[Chuck Norris]

Re: Iup basketball

I don't think either side truly wanted/wants to play the other in the regular season. Joe offering a 2 for 1 "deal" was not a legitimate attempt to schedule WLU. What it was was an attempt to make an "offer" that was so one sided that WLU would summarily decline which would him the ability to say they offered to play and WLU declined (implication being WLU was ducking IUP). Crutch for his part countered IUP's obsurd "offer" with one of his own that was equally designed to cause IUP to say, no.

If both sides truly wanted to play, it would be relatively easy to make happen...two year home and home...referee selection per normally accepted process. Fact that neither side offered/is offering that and instead resorts to lopsided proposals that they believe the other side will not accept tells me all I need to know.

It's entirely possible that this is 100% accurate. But if I'm gonna give one side the benefit of the doubt, I'll just look at the non conference schedules IUP plays under Joe vs what West Lib played under Crutch. Absolutely no comparison. Joe has all the leverage here. He doesn't need West Lib in order to put together a formidable non con schedule. Never has, never will. Conversely all we've heard for years from the West Lib camp is the whining about how no one will play them. Well, apparently the offer was there. Was it a bit of a strong arming attempt on Joe's part if all the details are true? Yeah it was. And I don't blame him. IUP built him a big fancy arena and he's trying to fill it.

[IUP CRIMSON HAWKS]

Re: Iup basketball

Valid point. And, of course, there's risk with playing those games. Often times one extra loss could cost you a dance spot. IUP has never went the cream puff route in the non-conference and there are years it hurt them. Look at Brandon Norfleet's senior season. One more win and that team would have made it (should have anyway). But, they paid the price for taking that big early schedule before the team was ready for it. I think they started 6-5 before going on that 14 or 15 game streak. The way they mauled the West last year ... well, you certainly can't expect that every year.

Look at this year .. Ferris State, Findlay, Fairmont, Bowie State (none at home) in addition to West Chester and ESU in crossover ... that's a big-boy schedule. Some West teams are going to be better this year. I actually think Cal is the second best team in the West entering the season. Mercyhurst had its rebuild year. SRU has some talent back plus a big class signed. IUP is going to be awfully good but I'd expect the random loss somewhere in the conference slate. To have a shot at hosting the regional the margin for error is probably about 2 losses. Three max most years.

See Gary Edwards years. He scheduled just about every Penn State-Podunk branch campus out there.

[boatcapt]

Re: Iup basketball

I don't think either side truly wanted/wants to play the other in the regular season. Joe offering a 2 for 1 "deal" was not a legitimate attempt to schedule WLU. What it was was an attempt to make an "offer" that was so one sided that WLU would summarily decline which would him the ability to say they offered to play and WLU declined (implication being WLU was ducking IUP). Crutch for his part countered IUP's obsurd "offer" with one of his own that was equally designed to cause IUP to say, no.

If both sides truly wanted to play, it would be relatively easy to make happen...two year home and home...referee selection per normally accepted process. Fact that neither side offered/is offering that and instead resorts to lopsided proposals that they believe the other side will not accept tells me all I need to know.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: Iup basketball

Valid point. And, of course, there's risk with playing those games. Often times one extra loss could cost you a dance spot. IUP has never went the cream puff route in the non-conference and there are years it hurt them. Look at Brandon Norfleet's senior season. One more win and that team would have made it (should have anyway). But, they paid the price for taking that big early schedule before the team was ready for it. I think they started 6-5 before going on that 14 or 15 game streak. The way they mauled the West last year ... well, you certainly can't expect that every year.

Look at this year .. Ferris State, Findlay, Fairmont, Bowie State (none at home) in addition to West Chester and ESU in crossover ... that's a big-boy schedule. Some West teams are going to be better this year. I actually think Cal is the second best team in the West entering the season. Mercyhurst had its rebuild year. SRU has some talent back plus a big class signed. IUP is going to be awfully good but I'd expect the random loss somewhere in the conference slate. To have a shot at hosting the regional the margin for error is probably about 2 losses. Three max most years.

[Chuck Norris]

Re: Iup basketball

Regardless of the he-said, she-said, they should have made it happen and didn't. Two elite programs two hours apart ... it could of (and should have been) worked out.

I'd love to see West Liberty or Wheeling Jesuit come to the annual tip-off tournament instead of Urbana.

That said, ... payback time for Fairmont State this season.

I'm still torn as to whether I want to see IUP and West Lib meet in the regular season. I always loved that they only met when the stakes were as high as they could be. A game at some point in December, especially here in Indiana where most of the community has yet to realize the season has started and the KCAC will be maybe 40% full, doesn't have the same luster. Of course, with a post season meeting no longer being a foregone conclusion the last couple years, a regular season meeting does get more appealing.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: Iup basketball

Regardless of the he-said, she-said, they should have made it happen and didn't. Two elite programs two hours apart ... it could of (and should have been) worked out.

I'd love to see West Liberty or Wheeling Jesuit come to the annual tip-off tournament instead of Urbana.

That said, ... payback time for Fairmont State this season.

[Chuck Norris]

Re: Iup basketball

Sounds to me like Joe wanted to have his cake and eat it too. Play us twice at OUR house using OUR refs and we'll GIVE you one game at your place were you can use your refs. Sounds like Joe was setting up a situation were he knew Crutch would say no. That way he could claim that IUP was more than willing to play WLU but WLU was ducking them. Bet Joe was surprised when Crutch said OK to the 2 for 1 scheme Joe asked for. Only way for Joe to duck actually having to play WLU was to say Crutch's insistence on having MEC/WVIAC refs officiate all the games was just too much for IUP to bear.

The post never said Joe wanted PSAC refs at the games in Indiana, just that he didn't want MEC refs at all 3 games. I believe in non conference games the usual protocol is the refs come from the visiting team's conference but I could be wrong, that may just be a D1 thing. It also never said Crutchfield said yes to the 2 for 1, just that it wasn't necessarily a deal breaker.

[boatcapt]

Re: Iup basketball

You might be able to tell me more about this, but I actually heard that a big part of the reason was that Crutchfield turned down the IUP series was because he wanted to use MEC officials for all of the games, but Joe said no. That's what a friend of mine who worked in the athletic department told me. He said it wasn't so much the 2 for 1. Apparently that was going to be okay, but Crutch wanted his guys in stripes for all 3 and never Joe's.

How does that work in basketball anyways? I know in football the road team's conference supplies the officials. That's how it works in Division 1 football at least. No idea if it's the same at the D2 level or if it's the same in basketball. If that whole thing is true, he must have really feared potentially playing against big boys in the post who would likely be allowed to muscle up, get physical, and play ball all game.

I think Crutchfield was a great coach at West Liberty. I often times think he was the only coach in the region with an ego bigger than Joe's though.

Sounds to me like Joe wanted to have his cake and eat it too. Play us twice at OUR house using OUR refs and we'll GIVE you one game at your place were you can use your refs. Sounds like Joe was setting up a situation were he knew Crutch would say no. That way he could claim that IUP was more than willing to play WLU but WLU was ducking them. Bet Joe was surprised when Crutch said OK to the 2 for 1 scheme Joe asked for. Only way for Joe to duck actually having to play WLU was to say Crutch's insistence on having MEC/WVIAC refs officiate all the games was just too much for IUP to bear.

[Chuck Norris]

Re: Iup basketball

It's amazing to think back to that 2015 regional final. I'm not sure if I've ever watched a team in any sport at any level execute a game plan that well. I can recall posts from after that game. Even West Liberty posters. Everybody said, it wasn't that WL didn't play great, IUP was just greater.

The way they tactically stuck to that idea of taking a shot if it was there early and if not waiting until there was 10 on the shot clock to run the offense was incredible. Those guys on the court didn't even blink. Not once. I recall that IUP controlled most of the 2nd half until about the last 5 minutes when things got a little frantic. What I can't recall is if West Liberty ever actually took the lead during that stretch though. I remember CJ Hester hitting a three and that place just going bananas, but I think that was to tie it. Even then, when that place was getting ready to burst, those guys just weren't phased.

I still don't know if IUP was the better of those two teams based on talent when you compare the two on paper. However, that team was "built for the moment" as they like to say. Every player on that roster was the right guy for the role he played. It's a rare combination for that, and fun to reflect on.

I can only hope Dante can find that slow heartbeat in the big games that Devante had. He will need it for these next two years.


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It was the most well played college basketball game I've ever seen by both teams at any level. West Lib shot around 60% overall and from 3, had something like 5 or 6 turnovers and lost. I've watched the whole thing on YouTube several times since.

[IUPTrackMan]

Re: Iup basketball

Also on the women's front, the team will open things up with an exhibition at Pitt.

If Tom's ever going to have a team that could put a legitimate scare in to a big program like Pitt ... this is it.

Pitt's roster has been hurt by the transfer of Brenna Wise. They tend to have a lot of injuries too. I think your point is valid. This may be a year to play a tight game (under 10) like the IUP men's team did 2-3 years ago.

[IUP24]

Interesting. I can't recall who officiated the last time they played (in the Regional final). As you recall in that game it wasn't so much a physical game as IUP was actually able to slow them down and it seemed to really frustrate them to not be able to dictate their frantic pace. Even the year before in the Regionals when WL won like 99-98 or something in Double OT Joe did a real good job of slowing the pace. That game should have never went to OT but that's part of the game. Damn missed foul shot.

It's amazing to think back to that 2015 regional final. I'm not sure if I've ever watched a team in any sport at any level execute a game plan that well. I can recall posts from after that game. Even West Liberty posters. Everybody said, it wasn't that WL didn't play great, IUP was just greater.

The way they tactically stuck to that idea of taking a shot if it was there early and if not waiting until there was 10 on the shot clock to run the offense was incredible. Those guys on the court didn't even blink. Not once. I recall that IUP controlled most of the 2nd half until about the last 5 minutes when things got a little frantic. What I can't recall is if West Liberty ever actually took the lead during that stretch though. I remember CJ Hester hitting a three and that place just going bananas, but I think that was to tie it. Even then, when that place was getting ready to burst, those guys just weren't phased.

I still don't know if IUP was the better of those two teams based on talent when you compare the two on paper. However, that team was "built for the moment" as they like to say. Every player on that roster was the right guy for the role he played. It's a rare combination for that, and fun to reflect on.

I can only hope Dante can find that slow heartbeat in the big games that Devante had. He will need it for these next two years.


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[IUP24]

Interesting. I can't recall who officiated the last time they played (in the Regional final). As you recall in that game it wasn't so much a physical game as IUP was actually able to slow them down and it seemed to really frustrate them to not be able to dictate their frantic pace. Even the year before in the Regionals when WL won like 99-98 or something in Double OT Joe did a real good job of slowing the pace. That game should have never went to OT but that's part of the game. Damn missed foul shot.

Marcel missed the front end of a 1 and 1 with just under two minutes left in the game. I think they were up 5. He sinks both of those and they go 7... Boy... you have to think IUP has a really good chance of beating East Stroud two nights later.

I think Jeffers missed one or two late in the first overtime that would have iced it, but the Marcel miss in regulation still haunts me.


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