Conference Dues, Teams Leaving and Lawsuits

[Columbuseer]

Unlike d1, apparently football does not drive the car in d2. According to ncaa research from 2021, expenses exceed generated revenue for every d2 school. Non-football schools lose less money than football schools. If donors and alumni would accept it, imho it is a better business decision to cancel football and replace it with less expensive and less injurious sports to replace any subsequent enrollment losses (e.g., esports, bowling, rifle, archery, etc.).

"The median revenue for Division II football schools ranges from $6,000 to $3.3 million, with a median of around $251,000. In 2021, no schools in this division were able to generate revenue that exceeded their expenses."

https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/res...port_FINAL.pdf

[Fightingscot82]

Unlike d1, apparently football does not drive the car in d2. According to ncaa research from 2021, expenses exceed generated revenue for every d2 school. Non-football schools lose less money than football schools. If donors and alumni would accept it, imho it is a better business decision to cancel football and replace it with less expensive and less injurious sports to replace any subsequent enrollment losses (e.g., esports, bowling, rifle, archery, etc.).

"The median revenue for Division II football schools ranges from $6,000 to $3.3 million, with a median of around $251,000. In 2021, no schools in this division were able to generate revenue that exceeded their expenses."

https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/res...port_FINAL.pdf

Their formula is straight revenue vs expenses. It fails to consider the tuition and fees the players pay. 90-100 students paying tuition will almost always well exceed expenses. You cut football for wrestling and you lose 75% of those players because they're only there to play football. The ones who stay are the local walk on and those focused on graduating.

[Columbuseer]

Their formula is straight revenue vs expenses. It fails to consider the tuition and fees the players pay. 90-100 students paying tuition will almost always well exceed expenses. You cut football for wrestling and you lose 75% of those players because they're only there to play football. The ones who stay are the local walk on and those focused on graduating.

I agree that one needs to find 90-100 students. I think adding other, less expensive sports could replace those losses over time even if you had to shift the 36 full scholarship equivalents from football to those new sports. Beats closing the college doors.

Chess team wnd esports team might recruit stronger students than football. :-)

[Bballfan]

I agree that one needs to find 90-100 students. I think adding other, less expensive sports could replace those losses over time even if you had to shift the 36 full scholarship equivalents from football to those new sports. Beats closing the college doors.

Chess team wnd esports team might recruit stronger students than football. :-)

Donors and alumni are not paying for chess and esports. Replacing athletes are only part of the equation. It is $$$ and prestige schools are looking for with football. I mean Lake Erie doesn't even have a stadium...but they haven't dropped their football team yet. But D2 is a VERY expensive sport to maintain. Malone finally wised up to that a few years ago just to save the university.

[Fightingscot82]

Donors and alumni are not paying for chess and esports. Replacing athletes are only part of the equation. It is $$$ and prestige schools are looking for with football. I mean Lake Erie doesn't even have a stadium...but they haven't dropped their football team yet. But D2 is a VERY expensive sport to maintain. Malone finally wised up to that a few years ago just to save the university.

D2 football is only very expensive compared to other D2 sports. Expenses aren't much different between D2 and D3. Small tuition-driven schools like Lake Erie know that modest budget athletics is a very strong tuition revenue producer. There's an entire book about this exact model. New tuition revenue from new students coming to play new sport is almost always over expenses. The average D2 football program costs about $700k. It would take only 35 students to break even. Any school that cuts football to "save money" doesn't understand how student enrollment drives their revenue at the micro level.

[Bballfan]

I get what you are saying, but take Kentucky Wesleyan for instance. They cut sports for about 105 athletes versus cutting football. That included track and field and cross country. Now, I have to ask, wouldn't it have been more cost effective to cut football? I can't imagine they saved as much from that. But who knows. In the end as you said it is all an enrollment game. You use sports to attract students to boost enrollment. Is that model sustainable? Studies show you shouldn't have an athlete student ratio above 25 - 30%, but some of these universities are at 50% or more.

[Scrub]

Studies show you shouldn't have an athlete student ratio above 25 - 30%, but some of these universities are at 50% or more.

That's one of the things that worries me about Wheeling. If you look at Niche (or other similar data crunching sites), they are listed at OVER 80% athletes!! There's no way that's sustainable.

[Tech Boys]

I get what you are saying, but take Kentucky Wesleyan for instance. They cut sports for about 105 athletes versus cutting football. That included track and field and cross country. Now, I have to ask, wouldn't it have been more cost effective to cut football? I can't imagine they saved as much from that. But who knows. In the end as you said it is all an enrollment game. You use sports to attract students to boost enrollment. Is that model sustainable? Studies show you shouldn't have an athlete student ratio above 25 - 30%, but some of these universities are at 50% or more.

Arguments can be made for both sides on a long list of details. When I saw this, the first thing that came to mind was the travel costs differences between football and CC/T&F. Football travels 5 or 6 times a season while CC/T&F spends almost the entire school year on the road. A school might host a meet in each of the individual sport's season so it leaves a lot of time away from campus including extra nights in hotels when they are at 2- and 3-day T&F meets.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

I get what you are saying, but take Kentucky Wesleyan for instance. They cut sports for about 105 athletes versus cutting football. That included track and field and cross country. Now, I have to ask, wouldn't it have been more cost effective to cut football? I can't imagine they saved as much from that. But who knows. In the end as you said it is all an enrollment game. You use sports to attract students to boost enrollment. Is that model sustainable? Studies show you shouldn't have an athlete student ratio above 25 - 30%, but some of these universities are at 50% or more.

Maybe. Maybe not. Remember, too, the general public (fans) typically could give two freaks about any sport not named basketball or football.

Probably half the schools in D2 don't even really care about 'winning' in football. They like having the Saturday game. It brings people to campus. The band plays. The cheerleaders get dolled up. Most importantly, about 75% of the team is paying their own tuition to be there. What happens on the field is largely irrelevant. Having Homecoming Weekend based around a Cross Country dual meet isn't exactly going to be good for business.

End of it all ... follow the money. It will tell the tale.

[Fightingscot82]

That's one of the things that worries me about Wheeling. If you look at Niche (or other similar data crunching sites), they are listed at OVER 80% athletes!! There's no way that's sustainable.

It is if a) they run a bare bones athletics operation, and b) can run a department that offers very little money.

[Fightingscot82]

I get what you are saying, but take Kentucky Wesleyan for instance. They cut sports for about 105 athletes versus cutting football. That included track and field and cross country. Now, I have to ask, wouldn't it have been more cost effective to cut football? I can't imagine they saved as much from that. But who knows. In the end as you said it is all an enrollment game. You use sports to attract students to boost enrollment. Is that model sustainable? Studies show you shouldn't have an athlete student ratio above 25 - 30%, but some of these universities are at 50% or more.

To me that speaks to something behind the scenes. Either political (football is connected to a VIP donor or trustee) or financial (financial obligations to certain sport-specific facilities like a football stadium).

[TheBigCat2192]

D2 football is only very expensive compared to other D2 sports. Expenses aren't much different between D2 and D3. Small tuition-driven schools like Lake Erie know that modest budget athletics is a very strong tuition revenue producer. There's an entire book about this exact model. New tuition revenue from new students coming to play new sport is almost always over expenses. The average D2 football program costs about $700k. It would take only 35 students to break even. Any school that cuts football to "save money" doesn't understand how student enrollment drives their revenue at the micro level.

Didn’t the guy who wrote the book preside over a school that closed?

[Bballfan]

That's one of the things that worries me about Wheeling. If you look at Niche (or other similar data crunching sites), they are listed at OVER 80% athletes!! There's no way that's sustainable.

Wheeling Jesuit was a pretty good school and competitive in a lot of sports, but once the Catholic Church pulled the money it has really went downhill. Having West Lib right up the road with a lot more money and resources, hard to compete. West Lib's biggest drawback is location. Flip campuses and you would have to wonder if Wheeling could stay afloat....which they still might not given all the challenges they now face.

[Fightingscot82]

Didn’t the guy who wrote the book preside over a school that closed?

No, I think you're confusing him with a main person highlighted in the book, Rick Creehan. Rick was AD at Allegheny, Washington & Jefferson, then followed the author to Adrian College in Michigan, which is where the book focus's lies. The author is Jeffrey Docking, who is still president at Adrian. From my perspective, the criticisms are that its based on D3 sports at a private school (the principles are the same for PASSHE's funding model), and that Adrian was nailed with Title IX violations because they intentionally added more men's sports to drive male enrollment.

[boatcapt]

That's one of the things that worries me about Wheeling. If you look at Niche (or other similar data crunching sites), they are listed at OVER 80% athletes!! There's no way that's sustainable.

I agree in general. But however you get students, you get them. I know they aren't a four year "college" but a school like IMG has to be at or pretty near 100% of their students being athletes. They seem to be doing quite well!

Would we feel the same way if 50% of a schools students were there because of the science department?