PASSHE Institutions Merging

[Fightingscot82]

I didn't realize that because I didn't think IUP's athletic department had anything at all to do with the Club hockey teams (which are actually ptetty good most years).

For Title IX purposes, there's a distinction between club and varsity. I believe it might consider cheerleading and if so cheer would count but not the dance team.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

They're not NCAA but since they are managed by athletics they count for Title IX. At Edinboro this is how wheelchair basketball falls.

I didn't realize that because I didn't think IUP's athletic department had anything at all to do with the Club hockey teams (which are actually ptetty good most years).

[Fightingscot82]

Is Sprint considered an NCAA sport or is it Club status?

Club status would be the work around the equal gender item.

It's hard to come up with a scenario that doesn't end bad for those on the chopping block.

They're not NCAA but since they are managed by athletics they count for Title IX. At Edinboro this is how wheelchair basketball falls.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

I agree about the negative perception but heck, the whole process is being met with negative perceptions. People are going to meet any change suggestion with reasons why THAT shouldn't or CAN'T be done. But somthing needs to be done and the time for simple painless adjustments is long since past!

Is Sprint considered an NCAA sport or is it Club status?

Club status would be the work around the equal gender item.

It's hard to come up with a scenario that doesn't end bad for those on the chopping block.

[boatcapt]

Question would be what does it do to the gate -- and also in alumni support, interest and (most importantly) donations?

If IUP or SRU went Sprint ... well, the math wouldn't be pretty. I think most view it as a mix between 13th Grade football and glorified intramurals.

Maybe over time it would gain speed at Cal, Clarion, Boro ... wherever. But, initially it's going to be met with very negative perception.

I agree about the negative perception but heck, the whole process is being met with negative perceptions. People are going to meet any change suggestion with reasons why THAT shouldn't or CAN'T be done. But somthing needs to be done and the time for simple painless adjustments is long since past!

[IUPbigINDIANS]

They may lose their current players (at lest the ones with other options), but they bring in new players who play on the sprint team. Your assumption seems to be based on the school loosing all 100 players and not replacing them. Weather you bring in 100 full tuition paying DII players or 100 full tuition paying Sprint players, that's still 100 students paying full tuition. Were you save is on coaches salaries both in actual compensation amount and in number of coaches (for example, Mansfield shows two coaches including the HC), and number of games (again, Mansfield showed seven regular season games).

Question would be what does it do to the gate -- and also in alumni support, interest and (most importantly) donations?

If IUP or SRU went Sprint ... well, the math wouldn't be pretty. I think most view it as a mix between 13th Grade football and glorified intramurals.

Maybe over time it would gain speed at Cal, Clarion, Boro ... wherever. But, initially it's going to be met with very negative perception.

[boatcapt]

What's the benefit to that though? Again, they cut expenses but they also lose a ton of students who take their tuition money with them. The merger is meant to save administrative costs, but its brought on by declining revenue. It wouldn't make sense to cut costs that guarantee additional revenue losses.

They may lose their current players (at lest the ones with other options), but they bring in new players who play on the sprint team. Your assumption seems to be based on the school loosing all 100 players and not replacing them. Weather you bring in 100 full tuition paying DII players or 100 full tuition paying Sprint players, that's still 100 students paying full tuition. Were you save is on coaches salaries both in actual compensation amount and in number of coaches (for example, Mansfield shows two coaches including the HC), and number of games (again, Mansfield showed seven regular season games).

[Fightingscot82]

All teams at the same level (D1, DII, D3)...Yep with the D1 exceptions you note. Buuuuutttttt...If a school downgraded to SPRINT football, they could stay at DII. From a dollars and cents standpoint, it makes sense...100 tuition paying players, cheaper coaching staffs and a better ability to control travel expenses.

I personally believe that the combined schools are going to treat athletics the same way they apparently are going to treat academics...one consolidated program with little if any overlap. For example, one campus will house the football team, another the basketball team, etc, etc. One AD with "assistant AD's" at the two campuses were the actual AD is housed. For football, I would think Bloom and Cal will house the football team.

What's the benefit to that though? Again, they cut expenses but they also lose a ton of students who take their tuition money with them. The merger is meant to save administrative costs, but its brought on by declining revenue. It wouldn't make sense to cut costs that guarantee additional revenue losses.

[CALUPA69]

Just to remind everyone, all programs must compete in the same NCAA classification. So all sports must compete at the D1, D2, or D3 levels. Schools can apply to "play up" in one sport (usually wrestling and ice hockey) but you can't "play down".

Also, the PASSHE system requires athletic aid to be funded with external dollars. So every athletic scholarship dollar comes from a donation, a fundraiser, or gameday revenue. Housing and meal plan waivers are allowed because they're auxiliary fees. All this means that dropping to D3 doesn't mean instant savings over D2. Our conference is relatively compact and our schools don't have the money to pay an exit fee ($80k) and play an independent schedule while searching for a conference.

I would think (hope) that if the PSAC went to the NCAA and made the argument that in line with the remodeling of PASSHE, that if those 14 schools would like to reshuffle the deck and move 4-6 schools out of PSAC to D3 conferences that would accept them, they could get a hearing. This would be a one time thing with negotiated fees to apply and no going back.
My ideal PSAC post PASSHE would be WEST- IUP, SRU, CAL, GU, MC, SHU and EAST- BU, ESU, KU, SHIP, WC, SHEP.
Yes I do realize this is all an illusion but it is 2020 and a good deal of my life feel like that.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

All teams at the same level (D1, DII, D3)...Yep with the D1 exceptions you note. Buuuuutttttt...If a school downgraded to SPRINT football, they could stay at DII. From a dollars and cents standpoint, it makes sense...100 tuition paying players, cheaper coaching staffs and a better ability to control travel expenses.

I personally believe that the combined schools are going to treat athletics the same way they apparently are going to treat academics...one consolidated program with little if any overlap. For example, one campus will house the football team, another the basketball team, etc, etc. One AD with "assistant AD's" at the two campuses were the actual AD is housed. For football, I would think Bloom and Cal will house the football team.

That seems to make sense ... but imagine a 6,000 seat, state of the art basketball arena in the center of the Cal campus used for intramurals.

Granted, only about 200 people go to the Vulcan home games. But, what in the world else do you do with that thing?

Clarion also just did a $72m upgrade on Tippin Gymnasium last year.

Quite a mess for them to sort out.

My opinion: Cal keeps men's basketball. Clarion gets football. Edinboro gets women's basketball. Of course, the Cal people would probably pick their well-established women's basketball program over their men's team.

[boatcapt]

Just to remind everyone, all programs must compete in the same NCAA classification. So all sports must compete at the D1, D2, or D3 levels. Schools can apply to "play up" in one sport (usually wrestling and ice hockey) but you can't "play down".

Also, the PASSHE system requires athletic aid to be funded with external dollars. So every athletic scholarship dollar comes from a donation, a fundraiser, or gameday revenue. Housing and meal plan waivers are allowed because they're auxiliary fees. All this means that dropping to D3 doesn't mean instant savings over D2. Our conference is relatively compact and our schools don't have the money to pay an exit fee ($80k) and play an independent schedule while searching for a conference.

All teams at the same level (D1, DII, D3)...Yep with the D1 exceptions you note. Buuuuutttttt...If a school downgraded to SPRINT football, they could stay at DII. From a dollars and cents standpoint, it makes sense...100 tuition paying players, cheaper coaching staffs and a better ability to control travel expenses.

I personally believe that the combined schools are going to treat athletics the same way they apparently are going to treat academics...one consolidated program with little if any overlap. For example, one campus will house the football team, another the basketball team, etc, etc. One AD with "assistant AD's" at the two campuses were the actual AD is housed. For football, I would think Bloom and Cal will house the football team.

[shipfbfan1]

Just to remind everyone, all programs must compete in the same NCAA classification. So all sports must compete at the D1, D2, or D3 levels. Schools can apply to "play up" in one sport (usually wrestling and ice hockey) but you can't "play down".

Also, the PASSHE system requires athletic aid to be funded with external dollars. So every athletic scholarship dollar comes from a donation, a fundraiser, or gameday revenue. Housing and meal plan waivers are allowed because they're auxiliary fees. All this means that dropping to D3 doesn't mean instant savings over D2. Our conference is relatively compact and our schools don't have the money to pay an exit fee ($80k) and play an independent schedule while searching for a conference.

Am I correct in that the sport you choose to play up a level can't be basketball, baseball or football? That would throw the title IX numbers completely off

[Fightingscot82]

Just to remind everyone, all programs must compete in the same NCAA classification. So all sports must compete at the D1, D2, or D3 levels. Schools can apply to "play up" in one sport (usually wrestling and ice hockey) but you can't "play down".

Also, the PASSHE system requires athletic aid to be funded with external dollars. So every athletic scholarship dollar comes from a donation, a fundraiser, or gameday revenue. Housing and meal plan waivers are allowed because they're auxiliary fees. All this means that dropping to D3 doesn't mean instant savings over D2. Our conference is relatively compact and our schools don't have the money to pay an exit fee ($80k) and play an independent schedule while searching for a conference.

[CALUPA69]

It's just hard to justify the threesome keeping three varsity football teams.

Presumably of the two triples, CAL and BLOOM would be the teams to carry on at the D2 level. IMO Sprint FB would be a nice option for the other three schools unless they wanted to explore D3.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

However, as described in the PASSHE document, how ROI is measured is a complex issue.

Title IX is a major issue (as always). Several of these "triad" schools have Title IX issues already. The merger can be a way to remedy that. If they were to adhere to a strict financial ROI model it would definitely discriminate against women's sports.

It will be interesting to see how they handle the 5 D1 sports involved.

When I first read this I thought that would be terrible for Clarion, Edinboro and Lock Haven. But, Sprint Football is better than no football. And, it keeps a roster full of students paying their own way. Your current staff of coaches likely all leaves (or is let go). Sprint coaches, I assume, are probably really young guys looking for a first job in coaching -- or, really old guys looking for a last job in coaching. Either way, the salary is much less. I also assume they have less (and drastically less paid) assistants.

Being honest, I usually forget Mansfield even has a Sprint team. Is there any interest in it from the community?

I'd assume most of the remaining varsity players all transfer mostly to schools in the PSAC. IUP and SRU will have a bidding war over some of the top ones.

It's just hard to justify the threesome keeping three varsity football teams.