LHU adding Women's Wrestling

[Horror Child]

Re: LHU adding Women's Wrestling

I agree with all of this, including the part about laws made with good intentions but having horrible unintended consequences.

[iupgroundhog]

Re: LHU adding Women's Wrestling

That's like saying girls shouldn't study math because there's just not as many female doctors, engineers and scientists as their male counterparts.

[IUPNation]

That's like saying girls shouldn't study math because there's just not as many female doctors, engineers and scientists as their male counterparts.

[jrshooter]

Re: LHU adding Women's Wrestling

Totally agree with this.

[Mikefln]

Re: LHU adding Women's Wrestling

Title IX is an abomination for 1 reason ans 1 reason only. Football. There is no other sport out there that requires the numbers like football does, so that drastically skews the numbers in the men side too much. At a D1 level you would need 4 women sports offering 20 scholarships each to equal a football team. There just were not that many type of sports out there to equalize football. If people would have just used their brains and exempt football from title IX or qualified it at 1/4 or 1/2 of the ratio (instead of using 85 they only counted 22 or even 44 of the 85) then many men sports could have been saved. But that would have taken thought and effort and leadership from politicians and Colleges Administrations so we are in our current state because neither group are capable of such matters.

[Fightingscot82]

Re: LHU adding Women's Wrestling

Title IX is an abomination for 1 reason ans 1 reason only. Football. There is no other sport out there that requires the numbers like football does, so that drastically skews the numbers in the men side too much. At a D1 level you would need 4 women sports offering 20 scholarships each to equal a football team. There just were not that many type of sports out there to equalize football. If people would have just used their brains and exempt football from title IX or qualified it at 1/4 or 1/2 of the ratio (instead of using 85 they only counted 22 or even 44 of the 85) then many men sports could have been saved. But that would have taken thought and effort and leadership from politicians and Colleges Administrations so we are in our current state because neither group are capable of such matters.

I think football being exempted would only underscore the need for Title IX. Its safe to assume that Title IX has reigned in football spending at schools below the Power Five. If anything, spending on football at those schools has only increased opportunities for women.

[Mikefln]

Re: LHU adding Women's Wrestling

I think football being exempted would only underscore the need for Title IX. Its safe to assume that Title IX has reigned in football spending at schools below the Power Five. If anything, spending on football at those schools has only increased opportunities for women.

And it killed other men's sports because there is NO OTHER SPORT that requires the numbers of football. Wrestling, Swimming, Track and Field, Tennis, Gymnastics all got slaughtered because football numbers are too high. Like IUPNation mentioned, no sport should have got cut, only women sports added. But to come close to equal numbers, schools either had to get rid of football or a bunch of other smaller sports. I do not call a law that basically eliminates opportunity from one group for the benefit of another group, a good law.

let me ask you this? Do you think it is fair that many booster clubs had emergency fundraising to save their programs (I am most familiar with wrestling programs that did this so that they would at minimum be breaking even) yet they were told it was not enough to save the program because they did not have the funds to save the program and create as new program for women.

[iupgroundhog]

Re: LHU adding Women's Wrestling

Title IX is an abomination for 1 reason ans 1 reason only. Football. There is no other sport out there that requires the numbers like football does, so that drastically skews the numbers in the men side too much. At a D1 level you would need 4 women sports offering 20 scholarships each to equal a football team. There just were not that many type of sports out there to equalize football. If people would have just used their brains and exempt football from title IX or qualified it at 1/4 or 1/2 of the ratio (instead of using 85 they only counted 22 or even 44 of the 85) then many men sports could have been saved. But that would have taken thought and effort and leadership from politicians and Colleges Administrations so we are in our current state because neither group are capable of such matters.

Yes, football is the sport that leads to unequal numbers and cutting men's sports. I don't see a way around that. You can't exempt football because that will just lead to more inequality when viewed from the women's side. You can't take football out of the mix, i.e. give football some other "para-collegiate" status because there is way too much money involved. Not gonna happen. So, we are stuck with the present system, more or less. In the case of LHU Wrestling, the women's program immediately resolves the problems they were facing on the men's side.


But getting back to the football question, I think the law is fair (by definition). It's the mix of sports that is unequal. Hence, the problems we have.

I don't think you can blame college administrators or elected officials. Administrators didn't create the law, civil rights lawyers did. That's their job and elected officials made it into law because that is their job.

[Fightingscot82]

Re: LHU adding Women's Wrestling

And it killed other men's sports because there is NO OTHER SPORT that requires the numbers of football. Wrestling, Swimming, Track and Field, Tennis, Gymnastics all got slaughtered because football numbers are too high. Like IUPNation mentioned, no sport should have got cut, only women sports added. But to come close to equal numbers, schools either had to get rid of football or a bunch of other smaller sports. I do not call a law that basically eliminates opportunity from one group for the benefit of another group, a good law.

let me ask you this? Do you think it is fair that many booster clubs had emergency fundraising to save their programs (I am most familiar with wrestling programs that did this so that they would at minimum be breaking even) yet they were told it was not enough to save the program because they did not have the funds to save the program and create as new program for women.

Problem is that you're in the United States - where everyone is created equal and guaranteed equal protection on the basis of sex. If you don't care for that, I suggest you and your dollars support schools that have set themselves up to be exclusive of federal equality laws such as Grove City and Hillsdale.

I don't really think Title IX killed men's gymnastics as much as it fell out of favor. http://www.iowastatedaily.com/sports...6425ce7d8.html

[Mikefln]

Re: LHU adding Women's Wrestling

Problem is that you're in the United States - where everyone is created equal and guaranteed equal protection on the basis of sex. If you don't care for that, I suggest you and your dollars support schools that have set themselves up to be exclusive of federal equality laws such as Grove City and Hillsdale.

I don't really think Title IX killed men's gymnastics as much as it fell out of favor. http://www.iowastatedaily.com/sports...6425ce7d8.html

There is a thing called outliers. When there is an outlier most laws make exception for them. Look at the smoking ban (which is a bad law for other reasons but that is neither here nor there) they still have exceptions for Bars that do not profit from food. Why? Because Bars are outliers, it is understood they play by a different set of rules then the rest of the hospitality sector so exceptions are made. In the world of Title IX, football is an outlier. No other sport needs the numbers like football does. When you are creating women's crew and giving scholarships to a bunch of girls who have little to no experience in the sports while taking away wrestling, Track and Field, and other men's sports where the athletes had worked on their craft for years for Title IX compliance, something is seriously wrong. I have no issue with creating the womens sports. But it should not be at the expense of established men's sports because one of the men's sports is an outlier. Exceptions should be made.

[iupgroundhog]

Re: LHU adding Women's Wrestling

There is a thing called outliers. When there is an outlier most laws make exception for them. Look at the smoking ban (which is a bad law for other reasons but that is neither here nor there) they still have exceptions for Bars that do not profit from food. Why? Because Bars are outliers, it is understood they play by a different set of rules then the rest of the hospitality sector so exceptions are made. In the world of Title IX, football is an outlier. No other sport needs the numbers like football does. When you are creating women's crew and giving scholarships to a bunch of girls who have little to no experience in the sports while taking away wrestling, Track and Field, and other men's sports where the athletes had worked on their craft for years for Title IX compliance, something is seriously wrong. I have no issue with creating the womens sports. But it should not be at the expense of established men's sports because one of the men's sports is an outlier. Exceptions should be made.

I don't disagree that it is unfortunate cirumstances. However, the law doesnt care whether it's football, field hockey, or tiddly winks. The only thing that matters is representative opportunities. It's up to the school to allocate opportunities equitably. If the school chooses to provide the disproportionate opportunity for football players over other male sports that is their choice and that is usually what happens.

[Fightingscot82]

Re: LHU adding Women's Wrestling

In my experience schools have cut programs that are under supported. Not under performing - under supported. So when IUP cut wrestling it wasn't because IUP wrestling had the worst record - it was because it wasn't drawing the type of support IUP basketball or football gets. If IUP's enrollment continues to shift toward more women (and demographic data suggests that its likely) expect baseball to be next.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: LHU adding Women's Wrestling

In my experience schools have cut programs that are under supported. Not under performing - under supported. So when IUP cut wrestling it wasn't because IUP wrestling had the worst record - it was because it wasn't drawing the type of support IUP basketball or football gets. If IUP's enrollment continues to shift toward more women (and demographic data suggests that its likely) expect baseball to be next.

Waited all day for that exact comment.

Money talks. Wrestling walked.

As for baseball ... so long as they treat it like an intramural sport ... so be it.

[iupgroundhog]

Re: LHU adding Women's Wrestling

In my experience schools have cut programs that are under supported. Not under performing - under supported. So when IUP cut wrestling it wasn't because IUP wrestling had the worst record - it was because it wasn't drawing the type of support IUP basketball or football gets. If IUP's enrollment continues to shift toward more women (and demographic data suggests that its likely) expect baseball to be next.

Not really. FWIW, Frank cut the wrestling and soccer programs to bolster football. Plain and simple.

[Mikefln]

Re: LHU adding Women's Wrestling

In my experience schools have cut programs that are under supported. Not under performing - under supported. So when IUP cut wrestling it wasn't because IUP wrestling had the worst record - it was because it wasn't drawing the type of support IUP basketball or football gets. If IUP's enrollment continues to shift toward more women (and demographic data suggests that its likely) expect baseball to be next.

If profits was the goal, then outside of a program here and there, there would be no sports outside of P5 football and men's basketball. There literally would not be a D2 or D3 division, and there would be no womens' sports, because too few would field teams as again most lose money upfront. They only make money through tuition that would not otherwise be there. At best most sports break even or come close to that for net profit (i.e. the actual profit, not back end profit like tuition). Also Duquesne got rid of their wrestling, baseball, and I forget what else and all of them had support. Also this law gets rid of tools the bolster male enrollment figures. Brilliant. When talking about D2 and D3, football and these other sports, they are profitable for the schools through tuition that it would not otherwise have. Most college teams in D2 and D3 have over 100 players, and most players (probably 75 or more of them) get next to nothing in athletic aid. Schools like Seton Hill, Wheeling Jesuit (football/wrestling) and St. Vincent (football) have added men's sports to bolster male enrollment so they can get the tuition money. Title IX is taking a tool away from schools at a time enrollment is going down.