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  • #46
    Originally posted by Uindy18 View Post

    Also who are the schools that are running from big powerhouses like GVSU and Ferris to smaller conferences? The only ones that come to mind for me would be Lindenwood to the GLVC, but I think they fit just as well in the GLVC geography wise and they have a more favorable public/private situation in the GLVC over the MIAA.
    I use wikipedia and went back to 2000 when this website started to look at movement. I didn't track new programs or movement that occurred because of dissolution of the NCC. I didn't track teams that left the division. I didn't include a team like Indianapolis, who "left" the GLIAC when the GLVC started sponsoring football. This is a list of what I think are programs that reclassified to what would be considered a tougher schedule and those that reclassified to what would be considered a weaker schedule.

    2000
    Harding - LSC to GSC
    Ouachita Baptist - LSC to GSC


    2004
    Minnesota-Duluth - NSIC to NCC
    Gannon - IND to GLIAC


    2005
    Missouri-Rolla - MIAA to GLVC

    2006
    Fort Hays - RMAC to MIAA

    2008
    Gannon - GLIAC to PSAC
    Mercyhurst - GLIAC to PSAC

    CW-Post - NE10 to PSAC

    2011
    Arkansas-Monticello - GSC to GAC
    Arkansas Tech - GSC to GAC
    East Central - LSC to GAC
    Harding - GSC to GAC
    Henderson State - GSC to GAC
    Ouachita Baptist - GSC to GAC
    Southern Arkansas - GSC to GAC
    Southeastern Oklahoma - LSC to GAC
    Southwestern Oklahoma - LSC to GAC

    Central Oklahoma - LSC to MIAA
    Northeastern State - LSC to MIAA


    2012
    Nebraska-Kearney - RMAC to MIAA

    2013
    Notre Dame - GLIAC to MEC
    Truman State - MIAA to GLVC


    2014
    Kentucky Wesleyan - GLVC to GMAC
    Southwest Baptist - MIAA to GLVC

    Western New Mexico - RMAC to LSC

    2017
    Findlay - GLIAC TO GMAC
    Hillsdale - GLIAC TO GMAC
    Lake Erie - GLIAC TO GMAC
    Ohio Dominican - GLIAC TO GMAC
    Walsh - GLIAC TO GMAC


    2018
    Tiffin - GLIAC TO GMAC
    North Greenville - IND to GSC

    2019
    Lindenwood - MIAA to GLVC
    Shepherd - MEC to PSAC

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Brandon View Post

      I use wikipedia and went back to 2000 when this website started to look at movement. I didn't track new programs or movement that occurred because of dissolution of the NCC. I didn't track teams that left the division. I didn't include a team like Indianapolis, who "left" the GLIAC when the GLVC started sponsoring football. This is a list of what I think are programs that reclassified to what would be considered a tougher schedule and those that reclassified to what would be considered a weaker schedule.

      2000
      Harding - LSC to GSC
      Ouachita Baptist - LSC to GSC


      2004
      Minnesota-Duluth - NSIC to NCC
      Gannon - IND to GLIAC


      2005
      Missouri-Rolla - MIAA to GLVC

      2006
      Fort Hays - RMAC to MIAA

      2008
      Gannon - GLIAC to PSAC
      Mercyhurst - GLIAC to PSAC

      CW-Post - NE10 to PSAC

      2011
      Arkansas-Monticello - GSC to GAC
      Arkansas Tech - GSC to GAC
      East Central - LSC to GAC
      Harding - GSC to GAC
      Henderson State - GSC to GAC
      Ouachita Baptist - GSC to GAC
      Southern Arkansas - GSC to GAC
      Southeastern Oklahoma - LSC to GAC
      Southwestern Oklahoma - LSC to GAC

      Central Oklahoma - LSC to MIAA
      Northeastern State - LSC to MIAA


      2012
      Nebraska-Kearney - RMAC to MIAA

      2013
      Notre Dame - GLIAC to MEC
      Truman State - MIAA to GLVC


      2014
      Kentucky Wesleyan - GLVC to GMAC
      Southwest Baptist - MIAA to GLVC

      Western New Mexico - RMAC to LSC

      2017
      Findlay - GLIAC TO GMAC
      Hillsdale - GLIAC TO GMAC
      Lake Erie - GLIAC TO GMAC
      Ohio Dominican - GLIAC TO GMAC
      Walsh - GLIAC TO GMAC


      2018
      Tiffin - GLIAC TO GMAC
      North Greenville - IND to GSC

      2019
      Lindenwood - MIAA to GLVC
      Shepherd - MEC to PSAC
      Do not get me wrong. I am not saying that schools do not move to weaker conferences and benefit. But how do we know that the competition is the principal reason? It is not like schools publicly announce that they are stick of losing to Northwest Missouri State or GVSU. The diaspora out of the GLIAC to the GMAC in 2017 for example. All those moves helped competition, but also made sense geographically and were all private schools moving to a private school conference. I think schools make moves based on a wide array of reasons, and competition is a factor, just a lower level factor in comparison to geography and the publics/privates issues.

      Comment


      • #48
        Harding and Ouachita Baptist never wanted to join the LSC. They wanted to stick with the Arkie schools joining the GSC but at the time the GSC did not want too many schools from one state. The GSC had the five public (including central arkansas) schools. HU and OBU landed in the LSC until the GSC changed its mind.

        The GAC was formed to limit travel costs; although, the Arkie schools were po'd with the GSC also. The GSC did not have divisions for football which meant a fellow Arkie school would be missed on the schedule in favor of trips to Alabama and Georgia. Discussions about what would become the GAC actually began while we were all in the NAIA. I truly believe that ducking tougher competition was not a part of the GAC formation.

        The 2006 Fort Hays move does not have a color indication. Was this just missed or is it showing that it was a lateral move at the time.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Uindy18 View Post
          Do not get me wrong. I am not saying that schools do not move to weaker conferences and benefit. But how do we know that the competition is the principal reason? It is not like schools publicly announce that they are stick of losing to Northwest Missouri State or GVSU. The diaspora out of the GLIAC to the GMAC in 2017 for example. All those moves helped competition, but also made sense geographically and were all private schools moving to a private school conference. I think schools make moves based on a wide array of reasons, and competition is a factor, just a lower level factor in comparison to geography and the publics/privates issues.
          Agree. I've mentioned before that the GLIAC schools that left to join the G-MAC represent all levels of competitiveness. Below are the GLIAC All-Sports standings the year before the big exodus. The now-G-MAC schools held 4 of the top 6 spots. The now-G-MAC schools also have 3 of the bottom 6 spots. While the departing schools are pretty much a mixed-bag competitiveness-wise, they are not a mixed bag geographically. Every departing school is south of every remaining school. I know people keep beating the "they left because they are scared to play us" drum, but I honestly don't think that this was anything more than a geographic split (yes, sprinkled with some public/private). These schools decided that they had enough critical mass to to create their own conference and shorten up road trips. There is no longer a need to send every sport a school sponsors on trips to the far north.

          2016-17 Presidents' Trophy (All-Sports)
          1. Grand Valley State ..218.5
          2. Ashland...................153.0
          3. Saginaw Valley .......148.0
          4. Findlay .................... 144.5
          5. Tiffin ....................... 143.5
          6. Hillsdale..................131.0
          7. Wayne State ............ 125.5
          8. Ferris State .............. 124.0
          9. Northwood ..............105.0
          10. Walsh ........................ 96.0
          11. Northern Michigan....93.0
          12. Michigan Tech ..........86.0
          13. Ohio Dominican .......74.5
          14. Lake Erie...................67.0
          15. Lake Superior State... 40.5

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Uindy18 View Post

            Do not get me wrong. I am not saying that schools do not move to weaker conferences and benefit. But how do we know that the competition is the principal reason? It is not like schools publicly announce that they are stick of losing to Northwest Missouri State or GVSU. The diaspora out of the GLIAC to the GMAC in 2017 for example. All those moves helped competition, but also made sense geographically and were all private schools moving to a private school conference. I think schools make moves based on a wide array of reasons, and competition is a factor, just a lower level factor in comparison to geography and the publics/privates issues.
            "Tired of getting our ass kicked" will never be the factor that anyone publicly states for the move, but the code words can often be heard. I don't think it's always the primary reason. It it the primary reason sometimes. Administrators rationalize decisions all the time. There is a reason people get paid to do public relations.

            To be clear, schools can obviously come and go as they please. My issue with the moves is when they try to rationalize the easier schedule and pretend to be playoff worthy. "We can only play the schedule in front of us" is true, but it's also true that they are the ones who have manipulated that schedule.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Tech Boys View Post
              Harding and Ouachita Baptist never wanted to join the LSC. They wanted to stick with the Arkie schools joining the GSC but at the time the GSC did not want too many schools from one state. The GSC had the five public (including central arkansas) schools. HU and OBU landed in the LSC until the GSC changed its mind.

              The GAC was formed to limit travel costs; although, the Arkie schools were po'd with the GSC also. The GSC did not have divisions for football which meant a fellow Arkie school would be missed on the schedule in favor of trips to Alabama and Georgia. Discussions about what would become the GAC actually began while we were all in the NAIA. I truly believe that ducking tougher competition was not a part of the GAC formation.

              The 2006 Fort Hays move does not have a color indication. Was this just missed or is it showing that it was a lateral move at the time.
              The Fort Hays move should have been green. That was a mistake by me. There were many moves that I considered lateral that I did not include. Fort Hays is the one program I can think of that joined a tougher conference and improved.

              As you know, I have been paying attention for a long time. I do believe that what you wrote was a factor in some of the school's decision making, but I also believe that an easier path (than GSC competition) to the playoffs was a factor. I know that Henderson had an okay seasons in 2010 and Tech did well in 2009 (while losing to UNA twice and UWA) before the move happened. They did well against the teams that would eventually be part of the GAC.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by BlueBlood View Post

                Agree. I've mentioned before that the GLIAC schools that left to join the G-MAC represent all levels of competitiveness. Below are the GLIAC All-Sports standings the year before the big exodus. The now-G-MAC schools held 4 of the top 6 spots. The now-G-MAC schools also have 3 of the bottom 6 spots. While the departing schools are pretty much a mixed-bag competitiveness-wise, they are not a mixed bag geographically. Every departing school is south of every remaining school. I know people keep beating the "they left because they are scared to play us" drum, but I honestly don't think that this was anything more than a geographic split (yes, sprinkled with some public/private). These schools decided that they had enough critical mass to to create their own conference and shorten up road trips. There is no longer a need to send every sport a school sponsors on trips to the far north.

                2016-17 Presidents' Trophy (All-Sports)
                1. Grand Valley State ..218.5
                2. Ashland...................153.0
                3. Saginaw Valley .......148.0
                4. Findlay .................... 144.5
                5. Tiffin ....................... 143.5
                6. Hillsdale..................131.0
                7. Wayne State ............ 125.5
                8. Ferris State .............. 124.0
                9. Northwood ..............105.0
                10. Walsh ........................ 96.0
                11. Northern Michigan....93.0
                12. Michigan Tech ..........86.0
                13. Ohio Dominican .......74.5
                14. Lake Erie...................67.0
                15. Lake Superior State... 40.5
                2016 GLIAC North
                1. Grand Valley 10-0
                2. Ferris State 9-2
                3. Wayne State 7-4
                4. Saginaw Valley 5-5
                5. Hillsdale 4-5
                6. Michigan Tech 4-6
                7. Northern Michigan 3-7
                8. Northwood 3-8

                2016 GLIAC South
                1. Ashland 7-2 (L 24-21 to Michigan Tech, W 39-31 Ferris State, DNP Grand Valley)
                2. Tiffin 7-3 (L45-7 Grand Valley, DNP Ferris State)
                3. Ohio Dominican 7-4 (L 24-21 Grand Valley, Lost 41-0 Ferris State)
                4. Findlay 6-5 (L 28-17 Grand Valley, L 20-17 Ferris State
                5. Walsh 0-10
                6. Lake Erie 0-11


                Even if your perception of the moves is accepted as accurate, you'd agree that an 8-3 GLIAC team should make the playoffs before a 10-1 GMAC team? I am aware they are not in the same super region. It is hypothetical.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Just to stir the pot a bit.... I guess if making the PO's is why some schools move, does that prove that the PO selection process is flawed? Yeah, I know it's not just that.

                  And nobody likes to get beat regularly, so being more competitive in a conference has it's merits. Again, it's more than just football, but all sports. And like I mentioned above, I suspect that it's a variety of reasons. Some schools may have a stronger weight to a specific reason though.
                  Last edited by Redwing; 04-10-2021, 11:47 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Yes they are flawed. The rules are properly applied every year. The criteria should change.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Brandon View Post
                      Yes they are flawed. The rules are properly applied every year. The criteria should change.
                      I keep telling you...You, Me, JR and Joe all meet for Ribeyes and work the whole thing out on that Sunday...not that hard really....

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by BlueBlood View Post
                        I’m not buying the “ducking GV and Ferris” theory for the OH schools. There was discussion of an OH-centric conference prior to ODU, Walsh and Malone ever joining the GLIAC. It took longer than originally thought to develop, but there was a long-standing desire for it.

                        As for Northwood, that would be a head-scratcher for me and you guys might be right about them specifically. Northwood logistically makes no sense in the current G-MAC.
                        This is one of the few comments on this thread that makes any sense. I say that as a former athletic administrator at one of the schools who made the move from the GLIAC to the G-MAC. I feel comfortable saying that "access to the football playoffs" was not anywhere near the top of the conversations the university presidents were having, nor was "ducking tough competition." The announcement to make the move happened in June 2015. Six months earlier, ODU football finished the season ranked #4 in the country.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Scott Miles View Post

                          This is one of the few comments on this thread that makes any sense. I say that as a former athletic administrator at one of the schools who made the move from the GLIAC to the G-MAC. I feel comfortable saying that "access to the football playoffs" was not anywhere near the top of the conversations the university presidents were having, nor was "ducking tough competition." The announcement to make the move happened in June 2015. Six months earlier, ODU football finished the season ranked #4 in the country.
                          As far back as 2008 (maybe even further back) it was pretty well known that Walsh, Malone, Notre Dame, Cedarville, Mount Vernon Nazarene and Ursuline were interested in creating an Ohio D2 conference - and that there was a strong belief that "if they build it, the other OH D2 schools will come too". Do you know how involved ODU, LEC, Tiffin and Findlay for were in those early discussions? If you know, but can't say - I get it. I always got the impression that Ashland was the least involved OH school and least likely to come given its longer history in the GLIAC.

                          And really, my point in all of this is just that there was a long-standing desire by the OH schools to have a D2 conference - and that desire had nothing at all to do with GVSU, Ferris, football playoffs, or anything other than most of these schools were long-time rivals in the old NAIA MOC/AMC Conference and were geographically clustered.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Brandon View Post

                            I use wikipedia and went back to 2000 when this website started to look at movement. I didn't track new programs or movement that occurred because of dissolution of the NCC. I didn't track teams that left the division. I didn't include a team like Indianapolis, who "left" the GLIAC when the GLVC started sponsoring football. This is a list of what I think are programs that reclassified to what would be considered a tougher schedule and those that reclassified to what would be considered a weaker schedule.

                            2000
                            Harding - LSC to GSC
                            Ouachita Baptist - LSC to GSC


                            2004
                            Minnesota-Duluth - NSIC to NCC
                            Gannon - IND to GLIAC


                            2005
                            Missouri-Rolla - MIAA to GLVC

                            2006
                            Fort Hays - RMAC to MIAA

                            2008
                            Gannon - GLIAC to PSAC
                            Mercyhurst - GLIAC to PSAC

                            CW-Post - NE10 to PSAC

                            2011
                            Arkansas-Monticello - GSC to GAC
                            Arkansas Tech - GSC to GAC
                            East Central - LSC to GAC
                            Harding - GSC to GAC
                            Henderson State - GSC to GAC
                            Ouachita Baptist - GSC to GAC
                            Southern Arkansas - GSC to GAC
                            Southeastern Oklahoma - LSC to GAC
                            Southwestern Oklahoma - LSC to GAC

                            Central Oklahoma - LSC to MIAA
                            Northeastern State - LSC to MIAA


                            2012
                            Nebraska-Kearney - RMAC to MIAA

                            2013
                            Notre Dame - GLIAC to MEC
                            Truman State - MIAA to GLVC


                            2014
                            Kentucky Wesleyan - GLVC to GMAC
                            Southwest Baptist - MIAA to GLVC

                            Western New Mexico - RMAC to LSC

                            2017
                            Findlay - GLIAC TO GMAC
                            Hillsdale - GLIAC TO GMAC
                            Lake Erie - GLIAC TO GMAC
                            Ohio Dominican - GLIAC TO GMAC
                            Walsh - GLIAC TO GMAC


                            2018
                            Tiffin - GLIAC TO GMAC
                            North Greenville - IND to GSC

                            2019
                            Lindenwood - MIAA to GLVC
                            Shepherd - MEC to PSAC
                            2008 - Gannon and 'Hurst to the PSAC. Do you think they were switching conferences to avoid GVSU, Ferris, and SVSU ? Or do you think they were switching to move to a more geographic centered conference?

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Scott Miles View Post

                              This is one of the few comments on this thread that makes any sense. I say that as a former athletic administrator at one of the schools who made the move from the GLIAC to the G-MAC. I feel comfortable saying that "access to the football playoffs" was not anywhere near the top of the conversations the university presidents were having, nor was "ducking tough competition." The announcement to make the move happened in June 2015. Six months earlier, ODU football finished the season ranked #4 in the country.
                              I would love to hear more of the inside baseball that goes into moving from one conference to another. I realize that your professional ethics may prevent you from airing out all the laundry, but it is always something interesting to me.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by BlueBlood View Post

                                As far back as 2008 (maybe even further back) it was pretty well known that Walsh, Malone, Notre Dame, Cedarville, Mount Vernon Nazarene and Ursuline were interested in creating an Ohio D2 conference - and that there was a strong belief that "if they build it, the other OH D2 schools will come too". Do you know how involved ODU, LEC, Tiffin and Findlay for were in those early discussions? If you know, but can't say - I get it. I always got the impression that Ashland was the least involved OH school and least likely to come given its longer history in the GLIAC.

                                And really, my point in all of this is just that there was a long-standing desire by the OH schools to have a D2 conference - and that desire had nothing at all to do with GVSU, Ferris, football playoffs, or anything other than most of these schools were long-time rivals in the old NAIA MOC/AMC Conference and were geographically clustered.
                                I agree 100%. I firmly believe the goal of the GMAC was essentially follow the GLIAC/PSAC/MIAA model and essentially become a tight knit geographically conference focused around one or two states.

                                Comment

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