Northwood to GMAC?

[Uindy18]

This is one of the few comments on this thread that makes any sense. I say that as a former athletic administrator at one of the schools who made the move from the GLIAC to the G-MAC. I feel comfortable saying that "access to the football playoffs" was not anywhere near the top of the conversations the university presidents were having, nor was "ducking tough competition." The announcement to make the move happened in June 2015. Six months earlier, ODU football finished the season ranked #4 in the country.

I would love to hear more of the inside baseball that goes into moving from one conference to another. I realize that your professional ethics may prevent you from airing out all the laundry, but it is always something interesting to me.

[ESU Warrior]

I use wikipedia and went back to 2000 when this website started to look at movement. I didn't track new programs or movement that occurred because of dissolution of the NCC. I didn't track teams that left the division. I didn't include a team like Indianapolis, who "left" the GLIAC when the GLVC started sponsoring football. This is a list of what I think are programs that reclassified to what would be considered a tougher schedule and those that reclassified to what would be considered a weaker schedule.

2000
Harding - LSC to GSC
Ouachita Baptist - LSC to GSC

2004
Minnesota-Duluth - NSIC to NCC
Gannon - IND to GLIAC

2005
Missouri-Rolla - MIAA to GLVC

2006
Fort Hays - RMAC to MIAA

2008
Gannon - GLIAC to PSAC
Mercyhurst - GLIAC to PSAC
CW-Post - NE10 to PSAC

2011
Arkansas-Monticello - GSC to GAC
Arkansas Tech - GSC to GAC
East Central - LSC to GAC
Harding - GSC to GAC
Henderson State - GSC to GAC
Ouachita Baptist - GSC to GAC
Southern Arkansas - GSC to GAC
Southeastern Oklahoma - LSC to GAC
Southwestern Oklahoma - LSC to GAC
Central Oklahoma - LSC to MIAA
Northeastern State - LSC to MIAA

2012
Nebraska-Kearney - RMAC to MIAA

2013
Notre Dame - GLIAC to MEC
Truman State - MIAA to GLVC

2014
Kentucky Wesleyan - GLVC to GMAC
Southwest Baptist - MIAA to GLVC
Western New Mexico - RMAC to LSC

2017
Findlay - GLIAC TO GMAC
Hillsdale - GLIAC TO GMAC
Lake Erie - GLIAC TO GMAC
Ohio Dominican - GLIAC TO GMAC
Walsh - GLIAC TO GMAC

2018
Tiffin - GLIAC TO GMAC
North Greenville - IND to GSC

2019
Lindenwood - MIAA to GLVC
Shepherd - MEC to PSAC

2008 - Gannon and 'Hurst to the PSAC. Do you think they were switching conferences to avoid GVSU, Ferris, and SVSU ? Or do you think they were switching to move to a more geographic centered conference?

[BlueBlood]

This is one of the few comments on this thread that makes any sense. I say that as a former athletic administrator at one of the schools who made the move from the GLIAC to the G-MAC. I feel comfortable saying that "access to the football playoffs" was not anywhere near the top of the conversations the university presidents were having, nor was "ducking tough competition." The announcement to make the move happened in June 2015. Six months earlier, ODU football finished the season ranked #4 in the country.

As far back as 2008 (maybe even further back) it was pretty well known that Walsh, Malone, Notre Dame, Cedarville, Mount Vernon Nazarene and Ursuline were interested in creating an Ohio D2 conference - and that there was a strong belief that "if they build it, the other OH D2 schools will come too". Do you know how involved ODU, LEC, Tiffin and Findlay for were in those early discussions? If you know, but can't say - I get it. I always got the impression that Ashland was the least involved OH school and least likely to come given its longer history in the GLIAC.

And really, my point in all of this is just that there was a long-standing desire by the OH schools to have a D2 conference - and that desire had nothing at all to do with GVSU, Ferris, football playoffs, or anything other than most of these schools were long-time rivals in the old NAIA MOC/AMC Conference and were geographically clustered.

[Scott Miles]

This is one of the few comments on this thread that makes any sense. I say that as a former athletic administrator at one of the schools who made the move from the GLIAC to the G-MAC. I feel comfortable saying that "access to the football playoffs" was not anywhere near the top of the conversations the university presidents were having, nor was "ducking tough competition." The announcement to make the move happened in June 2015. Six months earlier, ODU football finished the season ranked #4 in the country.

[champgymusa]

Yes they are flawed. The rules are properly applied every year. The criteria should change.

I keep telling you...You, Me, JR and Joe all meet for Ribeyes and work the whole thing out on that Sunday...not that hard really....

[Brandon]

Yes they are flawed. The rules are properly applied every year. The criteria should change.

[Redwing]

Just to stir the pot a bit.... I guess if making the PO's is why some schools move, does that prove that the PO selection process is flawed? Yeah, I know it's not just that.

And nobody likes to get beat regularly, so being more competitive in a conference has it's merits. Again, it's more than just football, but all sports. And like I mentioned above, I suspect that it's a variety of reasons. Some schools may have a stronger weight to a specific reason though.

[Brandon]

Agree. I've mentioned before that the GLIAC schools that left to join the G-MAC represent all levels of competitiveness. Below are the GLIAC All-Sports standings the year before the big exodus. The now-G-MAC schools held 4 of the top 6 spots. The now-G-MAC schools also have 3 of the bottom 6 spots. While the departing schools are pretty much a mixed-bag competitiveness-wise, they are not a mixed bag geographically. Every departing school is south of every remaining school. I know people keep beating the "they left because they are scared to play us" drum, but I honestly don't think that this was anything more than a geographic split (yes, sprinkled with some public/private). These schools decided that they had enough critical mass to to create their own conference and shorten up road trips. There is no longer a need to send every sport a school sponsors on trips to the far north.

2016-17 Presidents' Trophy (All-Sports)
1. Grand Valley State ..218.5
2. Ashland...................153.0
3. Saginaw Valley .......148.0
4. Findlay .................... 144.5
5. Tiffin ....................... 143.5
6. Hillsdale..................131.0
7. Wayne State ............ 125.5
8. Ferris State .............. 124.0
9. Northwood ..............105.0
10. Walsh ........................ 96.0
11. Northern Michigan....93.0
12. Michigan Tech ..........86.0
13. Ohio Dominican .......74.5
14. Lake Erie...................67.0
15. Lake Superior State... 40.5

2016 GLIAC North
1. Grand Valley 10-0
2. Ferris State 9-2
3. Wayne State 7-4
4. Saginaw Valley 5-5
5. Hillsdale 4-5
6. Michigan Tech 4-6
7. Northern Michigan 3-7
8. Northwood 3-8

2016 GLIAC South
1. Ashland 7-2 (L 24-21 to Michigan Tech, W 39-31 Ferris State, DNP Grand Valley)
2. Tiffin 7-3 (L45-7 Grand Valley, DNP Ferris State)
3. Ohio Dominican 7-4 (L 24-21 Grand Valley, Lost 41-0 Ferris State)
4. Findlay 6-5 (L 28-17 Grand Valley, L 20-17 Ferris State
5. Walsh 0-10
6. Lake Erie 0-11


Even if your perception of the moves is accepted as accurate, you'd agree that an 8-3 GLIAC team should make the playoffs before a 10-1 GMAC team? I am aware they are not in the same super region. It is hypothetical.

[Brandon]

Harding and Ouachita Baptist never wanted to join the LSC. They wanted to stick with the Arkie schools joining the GSC but at the time the GSC did not want too many schools from one state. The GSC had the five public (including central arkansas) schools. HU and OBU landed in the LSC until the GSC changed its mind.

The GAC was formed to limit travel costs; although, the Arkie schools were po'd with the GSC also. The GSC did not have divisions for football which meant a fellow Arkie school would be missed on the schedule in favor of trips to Alabama and Georgia. Discussions about what would become the GAC actually began while we were all in the NAIA. I truly believe that ducking tougher competition was not a part of the GAC formation.

The 2006 Fort Hays move does not have a color indication. Was this just missed or is it showing that it was a lateral move at the time.

The Fort Hays move should have been green. That was a mistake by me. There were many moves that I considered lateral that I did not include. Fort Hays is the one program I can think of that joined a tougher conference and improved.

As you know, I have been paying attention for a long time. I do believe that what you wrote was a factor in some of the school's decision making, but I also believe that an easier path (than GSC competition) to the playoffs was a factor. I know that Henderson had an okay seasons in 2010 and Tech did well in 2009 (while losing to UNA twice and UWA) before the move happened. They did well against the teams that would eventually be part of the GAC.

[Brandon]

Do not get me wrong. I am not saying that schools do not move to weaker conferences and benefit. But how do we know that the competition is the principal reason? It is not like schools publicly announce that they are stick of losing to Northwest Missouri State or GVSU. The diaspora out of the GLIAC to the GMAC in 2017 for example. All those moves helped competition, but also made sense geographically and were all private schools moving to a private school conference. I think schools make moves based on a wide array of reasons, and competition is a factor, just a lower level factor in comparison to geography and the publics/privates issues.

"Tired of getting our ass kicked" will never be the factor that anyone publicly states for the move, but the code words can often be heard. I don't think it's always the primary reason. It it the primary reason sometimes. Administrators rationalize decisions all the time. There is a reason people get paid to do public relations.

To be clear, schools can obviously come and go as they please. My issue with the moves is when they try to rationalize the easier schedule and pretend to be playoff worthy. "We can only play the schedule in front of us" is true, but it's also true that they are the ones who have manipulated that schedule.

[BlueBlood]

Do not get me wrong. I am not saying that schools do not move to weaker conferences and benefit. But how do we know that the competition is the principal reason? It is not like schools publicly announce that they are stick of losing to Northwest Missouri State or GVSU. The diaspora out of the GLIAC to the GMAC in 2017 for example. All those moves helped competition, but also made sense geographically and were all private schools moving to a private school conference. I think schools make moves based on a wide array of reasons, and competition is a factor, just a lower level factor in comparison to geography and the publics/privates issues.

Agree. I've mentioned before that the GLIAC schools that left to join the G-MAC represent all levels of competitiveness. Below are the GLIAC All-Sports standings the year before the big exodus. The now-G-MAC schools held 4 of the top 6 spots. The now-G-MAC schools also have 3 of the bottom 6 spots. While the departing schools are pretty much a mixed-bag competitiveness-wise, they are not a mixed bag geographically. Every departing school is south of every remaining school. I know people keep beating the "they left because they are scared to play us" drum, but I honestly don't think that this was anything more than a geographic split (yes, sprinkled with some public/private). These schools decided that they had enough critical mass to to create their own conference and shorten up road trips. There is no longer a need to send every sport a school sponsors on trips to the far north.

2016-17 Presidents' Trophy (All-Sports)
1. Grand Valley State ..218.5
2. Ashland...................153.0
3. Saginaw Valley .......148.0
4. Findlay .................... 144.5
5. Tiffin ....................... 143.5
6. Hillsdale..................131.0
7. Wayne State ............ 125.5
8. Ferris State .............. 124.0
9. Northwood ..............105.0
10. Walsh ........................ 96.0
11. Northern Michigan....93.0
12. Michigan Tech ..........86.0
13. Ohio Dominican .......74.5
14. Lake Erie...................67.0
15. Lake Superior State... 40.5

[Tech Boys]

Harding and Ouachita Baptist never wanted to join the LSC. They wanted to stick with the Arkie schools joining the GSC but at the time the GSC did not want too many schools from one state. The GSC had the five public (including central arkansas) schools. HU and OBU landed in the LSC until the GSC changed its mind.

The GAC was formed to limit travel costs; although, the Arkie schools were po'd with the GSC also. The GSC did not have divisions for football which meant a fellow Arkie school would be missed on the schedule in favor of trips to Alabama and Georgia. Discussions about what would become the GAC actually began while we were all in the NAIA. I truly believe that ducking tougher competition was not a part of the GAC formation.

The 2006 Fort Hays move does not have a color indication. Was this just missed or is it showing that it was a lateral move at the time.

[Uindy18]

I use wikipedia and went back to 2000 when this website started to look at movement. I didn't track new programs or movement that occurred because of dissolution of the NCC. I didn't track teams that left the division. I didn't include a team like Indianapolis, who "left" the GLIAC when the GLVC started sponsoring football. This is a list of what I think are programs that reclassified to what would be considered a tougher schedule and those that reclassified to what would be considered a weaker schedule.

2000
Harding - LSC to GSC
Ouachita Baptist - LSC to GSC

2004
Minnesota-Duluth - NSIC to NCC
Gannon - IND to GLIAC

2005
Missouri-Rolla - MIAA to GLVC

2006
Fort Hays - RMAC to MIAA

2008
Gannon - GLIAC to PSAC
Mercyhurst - GLIAC to PSAC
CW-Post - NE10 to PSAC

2011
Arkansas-Monticello - GSC to GAC
Arkansas Tech - GSC to GAC
East Central - LSC to GAC
Harding - GSC to GAC
Henderson State - GSC to GAC
Ouachita Baptist - GSC to GAC
Southern Arkansas - GSC to GAC
Southeastern Oklahoma - LSC to GAC
Southwestern Oklahoma - LSC to GAC
Central Oklahoma - LSC to MIAA
Northeastern State - LSC to MIAA

2012
Nebraska-Kearney - RMAC to MIAA

2013
Notre Dame - GLIAC to MEC
Truman State - MIAA to GLVC

2014
Kentucky Wesleyan - GLVC to GMAC
Southwest Baptist - MIAA to GLVC
Western New Mexico - RMAC to LSC

2017
Findlay - GLIAC TO GMAC
Hillsdale - GLIAC TO GMAC
Lake Erie - GLIAC TO GMAC
Ohio Dominican - GLIAC TO GMAC
Walsh - GLIAC TO GMAC

2018
Tiffin - GLIAC TO GMAC
North Greenville - IND to GSC

2019
Lindenwood - MIAA to GLVC
Shepherd - MEC to PSAC

Do not get me wrong. I am not saying that schools do not move to weaker conferences and benefit. But how do we know that the competition is the principal reason? It is not like schools publicly announce that they are stick of losing to Northwest Missouri State or GVSU. The diaspora out of the GLIAC to the GMAC in 2017 for example. All those moves helped competition, but also made sense geographically and were all private schools moving to a private school conference. I think schools make moves based on a wide array of reasons, and competition is a factor, just a lower level factor in comparison to geography and the publics/privates issues.

[Brandon]

Also who are the schools that are running from big powerhouses like GVSU and Ferris to smaller conferences? The only ones that come to mind for me would be Lindenwood to the GLVC, but I think they fit just as well in the GLVC geography wise and they have a more favorable public/private situation in the GLVC over the MIAA.

I use wikipedia and went back to 2000 when this website started to look at movement. I didn't track new programs or movement that occurred because of dissolution of the NCC. I didn't track teams that left the division. I didn't include a team like Indianapolis, who "left" the GLIAC when the GLVC started sponsoring football. This is a list of what I think are programs that reclassified to what would be considered a tougher schedule and those that reclassified to what would be considered a weaker schedule.

2000
Harding - LSC to GSC
Ouachita Baptist - LSC to GSC

2004
Minnesota-Duluth - NSIC to NCC
Gannon - IND to GLIAC

2005
Missouri-Rolla - MIAA to GLVC

2006
Fort Hays - RMAC to MIAA

2008
Gannon - GLIAC to PSAC
Mercyhurst - GLIAC to PSAC
CW-Post - NE10 to PSAC

2011
Arkansas-Monticello - GSC to GAC
Arkansas Tech - GSC to GAC
East Central - LSC to GAC
Harding - GSC to GAC
Henderson State - GSC to GAC
Ouachita Baptist - GSC to GAC
Southern Arkansas - GSC to GAC
Southeastern Oklahoma - LSC to GAC
Southwestern Oklahoma - LSC to GAC
Central Oklahoma - LSC to MIAA
Northeastern State - LSC to MIAA

2012
Nebraska-Kearney - RMAC to MIAA

2013
Notre Dame - GLIAC to MEC
Truman State - MIAA to GLVC

2014
Kentucky Wesleyan - GLVC to GMAC
Southwest Baptist - MIAA to GLVC
Western New Mexico - RMAC to LSC

2017
Findlay - GLIAC TO GMAC
Hillsdale - GLIAC TO GMAC
Lake Erie - GLIAC TO GMAC
Ohio Dominican - GLIAC TO GMAC
Walsh - GLIAC TO GMAC

2018
Tiffin - GLIAC TO GMAC
North Greenville - IND to GSC

2019
Lindenwood - MIAA to GLVC
Shepherd - MEC to PSAC

[Uindy18]

UIndy being the southern most GLIAC team but placed in the GLIAC northern division was the motivation that brought UIndy's push for GLVC football and ultimately football's introduction into the GLVC conference. Somehow more northern universities such as Hillsdale, Wayne State (and others) were placed into the south division instead of UIndy although they are four hours north of Indianapolis. UIndy always liked its GLVC basketball opponents but not such a factor now with GLVC departures of Bellarmine, KWC, St Joseph and additionally Southern Indiana likely to leave.

Yeah, there is not much "Great Lakes" about the GLVC anymore outside of non-football Lewis. I always thought it would benefit everyone if KWC and Uindy swapped conferences. KWC would have a natural travel partner and rival in USI for non-football sports, and Uindy would fit nicely into a strong Indiana/Ohio-centric GMAC (especially if they are able to pull in an NDC and a Indiana NAIA school or two)