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  • This MAC talk is interesting. I've always thought that GVSU kind of seemed like a MAC-like school playing in D2.

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    • Originally posted by Tony Nicolette View Post
      Interesting conversation, Chap. I'll start by saying that I don't necessarily believe that MAC schools should be FCS. I was simply responding to your assertion in post 338 that the media rights money is why MAC schools don't belong in FCS.

      I still contend that the media rights money these schools get is not the "crippler" you asserted in that same post. Do they get some additional soft dollar value from the exposure? OK...I can grant you that, but that hardly turns the 3% of their budget that the hard dollars provide into something truly major. I mean, let's be honest, that exposure's impact has limits.

      In subsequent posts, you have added additional rationales around other money factors why MAC schools don't belong in FCS:
      • Money Games - Sure, they do get more as a MAC school than they would as an FCS school. No argument. BUT, there is more to the story here. Don't forget that as FBS schools, MAC schools are also the PAYER in money games. EVERY MAC school has at least one FCS opponent on their 2022 schedule. I will absolutely agree that the net of these non-con games is a positive cash flow to MAC members. 100% true. BUT, is it bringing millions in every year to each school in a fashion that offsets a large percentage of their athletics budget? I bet we could find a couple instances where that is the case, but we could also find others where it isn't. It's important, sure, but it has its caveats and isn't universally a boon for every school.
      • Non-Revenue Sports - Yep, totally with you that those media rights dollars have an impact. I guess I would submit that a drop to FCS would also present a decrease in the need for those dollars via a reduction in the overall athletics budget:
        • Dropping football schollie load from 85 to 63 (double benefit here, as cost drops and students paying tuition increases)
        • FCS coaching staffs make less across the board vs. FBS coaching staffs
        • Athletic departments in FCS in total are smaller and less costly vs. their FBS counterparts
      • More non-Rev Athletes Enrolled - Yep, 100% agree that many schools use athletics as a way to have more students on campus that are paying their own way, and that keeping those sports around is important. Is the $800K (on the high side) of the media rights keeping a couple of sports going? Perhaps, but would the reductions in costs of being FCS reduce the school's athletics budget by a commensurate amount that would keep those same kids on campus and paying tuition? One could argue it might.

      Look, I'll re-state: I am not out here trying to say that MAC schools should be FCS. I agree with you that when you add all of your instances together there is a net dollar benefit to being in the MAC vs. FCS. I still don't think it's a windfall, however, and moreover isn't a silver bullet to why they should be at any level in particular. It's a very nuanced situation.

      Since we are on this walk, the ultimate position I hold is that there is a good-sized portion of the current NCAA membership that actually belongs somewhere that doesn't yet exist. Let's face it: In principle, MAC schools are FBS the same as any of the Power 5 schools are FBS. Average MAC budget? $25-$26M per my prior post. Average Big Ten budget? Roughly $100M. Average SEC budget? Almost $99M. The "poorest" of the P5 conferences, the ACC, still has an average athletics budget of $57M. That landscape is decidedly slanted.

      I'm with you that MAC members need every dollar they can scrounge, but I would submit that every time they find one dollar, the P5 schools are finding two or three. So, do MAC schools belong in FBS in general? I would argue not through the lens that NO G5 school stands a chance in general against what the P5 schools have and are capable of. Does that mean they should be FCS? I don't agree with that either, but I could argue they fit more closely with FCS than they do P5.

      Not to put too fine a point on it, one other thing to look at is WHERE the $ comes from. On average, the $100M Big Ten budgets only pull 7% of their funds from the government, student fees, and their school's general fund. When it comes to the $26M MAC budgets, 79% of those dollars come from those same sources. Think about that...MAC schools actually provide more than double the amount of cash to their athletic departments compared to their Big Ten counterparts, so they can have a 1/4 of the total budget. That math simply doesn't add up to any sort of level playing field, let alone offer a path to any sort of true competitiveness or value derivation. The P5 are in a space unto themselves. It's not a bad thing...it is what it is. This site spells a lot of this out...it's great info.

      Would be way easier to discuss this vs. trying to type all of these things. Perhaps this is fodder for future broadcasts from the great Media Mind of Misener?
      We may not agree on everything regarding how college athletics is run, but one thing is certain and we agree on it. "Since we are on this walk, the ultimate position I hold is that there is a good-sized portion of the current NCAA membership that actually belongs somewhere that doesn't yet exist."

      Unfortunately, for most schools, the idea of being an FBS and D1 member has chased the all mighty dollar too far. It was one thing when D1 athletics were still about student athletes and there was some teeth to the idea they were students first and athletes second. Unfortunately the schools began to realize how much money they could make from athletics (speaking large Power 5 Programs), and they began chasing those $$$$$$$, with the blessing and assistance of the NCAA. This has created a rift between the haves and have nots with D1 and have pushed D2 even farther behind.

      From what I recall (I don't have the research handy), something like 95% of the NCAA's revenue is dumped back into D1 athletics.

      I actually did a project for my sports management master's degree that looked at the potential of a school (non-football, small D2 school), moving up to division 1 for athletics.

      When you actually looked at that particular school, the money actually does make sense for a school to move up, if you don't consider the heavy cost the NCAA is putting on moving up. (The fee is several times the average D1 yearly revenue cut to the school IIRC),

      There are a lot of revenue streams that people don't consider when talking about moving up or staying in D2. One of them deals with scholarships. what many people don't know is the NCAA actually pays a substantial stipend to schools for each athletic scholarship they offer. (see note below)

      This scholarship stipend is another place the NCAA is creating the haves and the have nots in D1 athletics. The more scholarships a school gives out per year overall, the more each stipend is worth.

      The following is from the NCAA's own document regarding the distribution of money to institutions.

      "The Grants-in-Aid Fund is based on the number of athletic grants awarded in the prior academic year by each institution (based on full-time equivalencies), with an escalating multiplier which rewards schools that provide more athletic grants. The unit value is determined by the total number of athletic grants awarded by all active Division I institutions.

      The multiplier, from what I recall increases drastically between the scholarship numbers an FBS school provides and what a FCS or non-football school provides, again putting a lot more money into the hands of the haves rather than the have nots.

      Beyond the NCAA's scope now are decisions from the courts which have farther split the Power 5 and rest of college athletics. With very rare exceptions, NIL deals are largely favoring Power 5 student athletes, and as a result the schools these athletes attend. With the NCAA's repeated failure to act, the government and courts have been forced to act.

      Finally, back to what the NCAA allowed to happen. The D1 management committee allowed full cost of attendance to be paid for student athletes, rather than just tuition and room and board. This further creates a separation because many schools can not afford to pay cost of attendance to all athletes. This puts those schools father behind.

      I really think in the next few years you will see a complete split between The Power 5 (Power 6 for basketball), and the rest of the D1 programs. The Power 5 schools will split off from the rest of the NCAA and form their own governing agency, while the rest of D1 will undergo drastic changes. I also think this will come down to D2 and you will see a major split between D2 schools, some of whom will continue to move to the new D1, while others will stay with the current division.




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      • So if GV moves up to the Horizon league for all other sports, what conference will football join? Or will we stay FCS independent?
        Last edited by GVSU-2019; 06-13-2022, 12:28 PM.

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        • Originally posted by GVSU-2019 View Post
          So if GV moves up to the Horizon league for all other sports, what conference will football join? Or will we stay FCS independent?
          OVC
          2021 D2Football Fantasy Champion

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          • Originally posted by BlueBlood View Post
            This MAC talk is interesting. I've always thought that GVSU kind of seemed like a MAC-like school playing in D2.
            At this point, we really are. About the only thing that separates us is age/size of the alumni base.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by KleShreen View Post

              OVC
              Ugh. Can't we just force Oakland and U of D to sponsor football/bring Ferris and Wayne State with us? I hate the idea of playing in the OVC

              Comment


              • Originally posted by GVSU-2019 View Post

                Ugh. Can't we just force Oakland and U of D to sponsor football/bring Ferris and Wayne State with us? I hate the idea of playing in the OVC
                OVC is a dumpster fire and one that's a million miles a way at that. We'd be doing it for the sake of doing it. Dumb.

                Horizon is OK, but who gives a rip about playing Green Bay? You mean the Packers? Less dumb? Sorta. But still dumb.

                Beach is right that we don't have the alumni base. The other big difference GV v MAC is so far we haven't been stupid enough to pull $18M a year from our own money to pay for sports so we can get pasted most of the time. I don't always agree with Tony's comments let alone read all of them (enough with the novels, dude) but he does have the right idea with the #'s about what MAC schools spend of their own $ and fees to pay for their athletic depts. REALLY dumb.

                GLIAC may be shaky, but I still like us in D2 until there is a glaringly better option.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Irishlaker View Post

                  OVC is a dumpster fire and one that's a million miles a way at that. We'd be doing it for the sake of doing it. Dumb.

                  Horizon is OK, but who gives a rip about playing Green Bay? You mean the Packers? Less dumb? Sorta. But still dumb.

                  Beach is right that we don't have the alumni base. The other big difference GV v MAC is so far we haven't been stupid enough to pull $18M a year from our own money to pay for sports so we can get pasted most of the time. I don't always agree with Tony's comments let alone read all of them (enough with the novels, dude) but he does have the right idea with the #'s about what MAC schools spend of their own $ and fees to pay for their athletic depts. REALLY dumb.

                  GLIAC may be shaky, but I still like us in D2 until there is a glaringly better option.
                  I wholeheartedly agree. I live in Nashville, and my buddy covers college football around here. The OVC is a complete ****show that's bleeding members and money. While personally it would be nice to see GVSU @ Tennessee State every now and then, I can't see students, fans, players, or media getting fired up for any of the OVC teams like we do for Ferris or SVSU. I think any option that doesn't include a few more FCS schools in Michigan should be a nonstarter.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Irishlaker View Post

                    OVC is a dumpster fire and one that's a million miles a way at that. We'd be doing it for the sake of doing it. Dumb.

                    Horizon is OK, but who gives a rip about playing Green Bay? You mean the Packers? Less dumb? Sorta. But still dumb.

                    Beach is right that we don't have the alumni base. The other big difference GV v MAC is so far we haven't been stupid enough to pull $18M a year from our own money to pay for sports so we can get pasted most of the time. I don't always agree with Tony's comments let alone read all of them (enough with the novels, dude) but he does have the right idea with the #'s about what MAC schools spend of their own $ and fees to pay for their athletic depts. REALLY dumb.

                    GLIAC may be shaky, but I still like us in D2 until there is a glaringly better option.
                    Problem is the GLIAC is also a dumpster fire and it's showing no signs of improvement. Our options for filling the open slots have been nothing but small podunk private schools moving up from NAIA or D3. Anytime we go that route, we end up keeping them around a whole 2-3 years and they end up leaving because they got in over their heads. Then we're right back to square one.

                    I have enjoyed D2 over the years, but I personally believe the writing is on the wall when our conference is imploding, we struggle to fill the open schedule with D2 opponents, and we have resorted to playing in-conference teams twice. I think there is a future for us in Division I and it's only a matter of time before we move up. I believe we also have the geographic advantage where if we eventually moved up into the MAC, we would likely overtake the directionals athletically.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by GVSU-2019 View Post

                      Ugh. Can't we just force Oakland and U of D to sponsor football/bring Ferris and Wayne State with us? I hate the idea of playing in the OVC
                      Oakland does have a club team, but I don't see them ever elevating that to a varsity status team. Too much competition in the region, with UofM, the Lions, MSU all in the same general area. They would end up in the same boat as EMU in terms of being washed away from view by bigger name programs (at least WMU and CMU are far enough away to avoid that wash).

                      UofD Mercy likely would not reinstate football due to budget reasons. They did, at one time, under the University of Detroit name, offer football (pre-merger). they dropped the sport in 1965. Interestingly, Detroit claims a football national title in 1928, being selected by one of the selectors who choose national champions in that era (Parke Davis).

                      Detroit last season of football included games against 4 teams who are now (or will soon be) Power Conference opponents. The last opponent that played who would have been considered a DII or lower team was NMU in 1963. Detroit had no problem playing bigger name teams even as their football was uncertain including Army, Navy, MSU, Miami (Fl), Boston College (who was the last opponent ever), Kentucky, and even Notre Dame.

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                      • there was a GVSU recruit whose school confirmed the school was moving to D1 in 2023

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                        • Originally posted by Illinoisguy23 View Post
                          there was a GVSU recruit whose school confirmed the school was moving to D1 in 2023
                          Nothing was confirmed. The recruit just claimed that's what he was told, but if that were the case, there probably would have been an announcement by now. And it's possible that GVSU has not been invited to a D1 conference.
                          2021 D2Football Fantasy Champion

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by KleShreen View Post

                            Nothing was confirmed. The recruit just claimed that's what he was told, but if that were the case, there probably would have been an announcement by now. And it's possible that GVSU has not been invited to a D1 conference.
                            my bad i didnt clarify that it was a basketball recruit whose school verified. but at this point it be better for GVSU to move up

                            Comment


                            • It’s looking more and more like Davenport to the G-MAC by 2023-2024

                              if this does pan out, how does a 6-team GLIAC football conference survive?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Illinoisguy23 View Post
                                there was a GVSU recruit whose school confirmed the school was moving to D1 in 2023
                                Just curious where you saw that?

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