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  • Originally posted by KleShreen View Post

    There's zero point in moving up if you're just going to go to be complacent and fodder for larger schools.
    Perhaps.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by KleShreen View Post

      That would mean the MAC is moving down to FCS, then, because I believe there's by-laws that don't allow for a school to skip from D-II to FBS in football.
      The NCAA bylaws also don't allow a school to move from DIII to DI directly either, however the St. Thomas Tommies have done just that, with a waiver from the NCAA.

      I don't think GVSU would end up going to the MAC anytime soon, and I really don't think the MAC would want GVSU either, at least not the three Michigan schools or Toledo / BGSU. GVSU is too much in their region for it to be a good thing for GVSU to move to the MAC.

      If GVSU moves up they go to the Horizon League for all sports offered except football and likely go to the OVC/Big South merged league for football. The Horizon League looks to be searching for a 12th member as UIC is moving to the MVC effective July 1st.

      I think the move to the Horizon would be GVSU's best move. GVSU currently (or will soon) offer all sports the Horizon offers with the exception of men's soccer. The addition of GVSU's men's tennis team would get the Horizon to the minimum 6 members required for an automatic NCAA bid as well (they currently have 5).

      Only three non-football sports GVSU offers would not have homes in the Horizon. GVSU's wrestling teams would need to find a conference home. This would likely be the MAC on the men's side, but GVSU would be the only D1 women's wrestling program in the country. Women's lacrosse is the only other sport that would need a conference home, and that would likely be the MAC (UofD Mercy, Youngstown State and Robert Morris are all MAC members for the sport.)

      From a geographic standpoint it would be an absolute no brainer. Traffic would not be significantly greater than the GLIAC travel was a few years ago with the Ohio and Pennsylvania schools in the conference.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by chapmaja View Post

        The NCAA bylaws also don't allow a school to move from DIII to DI directly either, however the St. Thomas Tommies have done just that, with a waiver from the NCAA.

        I don't think GVSU would end up going to the MAC anytime soon, and I really don't think the MAC would want GVSU either, at least not the three Michigan schools or Toledo / BGSU. GVSU is too much in their region for it to be a good thing for GVSU to move to the MAC.

        If GVSU moves up they go to the Horizon League for all sports offered except football and likely go to the OVC/Big South merged league for football. The Horizon League looks to be searching for a 12th member as UIC is moving to the MVC effective July 1st.

        I think the move to the Horizon would be GVSU's best move. GVSU currently (or will soon) offer all sports the Horizon offers with the exception of men's soccer. The addition of GVSU's men's tennis team would get the Horizon to the minimum 6 members required for an automatic NCAA bid as well (they currently have 5).

        Only three non-football sports GVSU offers would not have homes in the Horizon. GVSU's wrestling teams would need to find a conference home. This would likely be the MAC on the men's side, but GVSU would be the only D1 women's wrestling program in the country. Women's lacrosse is the only other sport that would need a conference home, and that would likely be the MAC (UofD Mercy, Youngstown State and Robert Morris are all MAC members for the sport.)

        From a geographic standpoint it would be an absolute no brainer. Traffic would not be significantly greater than the GLIAC travel was a few years ago with the Ohio and Pennsylvania schools in the conference.
        I agree all around. Apparently, though, it’s the Horizon League members that need convincing that it’s a no-brainer. GVSU brings everything to the table to strengthen the conference, but I have learned with this whole GLIAC debacle that some don’t necessarily want to be a part of a strong conference.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Brandon View Post

          Right. It's just an imaginary scenario - imaginary on all counts right now.
          Imaginary but logical. FCS is where the MAC belongs.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by chapmaja View Post

            The NCAA bylaws also don't allow a school to move from DIII to DI directly either, however the St. Thomas Tommies have done just that, with a waiver from the NCAA.

            I don't think GVSU would end up going to the MAC anytime soon, and I really don't think the MAC would want GVSU either, at least not the three Michigan schools or Toledo / BGSU. GVSU is too much in their region for it to be a good thing for GVSU to move to the MAC.

            If GVSU moves up they go to the Horizon League for all sports offered except football and likely go to the OVC/Big South merged league for football. The Horizon League looks to be searching for a 12th member as UIC is moving to the MVC effective July 1st.

            I think the move to the Horizon would be GVSU's best move. GVSU currently (or will soon) offer all sports the Horizon offers with the exception of men's soccer. The addition of GVSU's men's tennis team would get the Horizon to the minimum 6 members required for an automatic NCAA bid as well (they currently have 5).

            Only three non-football sports GVSU offers would not have homes in the Horizon. GVSU's wrestling teams would need to find a conference home. This would likely be the MAC on the men's side, but GVSU would be the only D1 women's wrestling program in the country. Women's lacrosse is the only other sport that would need a conference home, and that would likely be the MAC (UofD Mercy, Youngstown State and Robert Morris are all MAC members for the sport.)

            From a geographic standpoint it would be an absolute no brainer. Traffic would not be significantly greater than the GLIAC travel was a few years ago with the Ohio and Pennsylvania schools in the conference.
            Obviously I think most people here agree Horizon would make sense. But it sounds like the Horizon doesn't want GV. I'm guessing Detroit and Oakland don't want the competition.
            2021 D2Football Fantasy Champion

            Comment


            • Are other facilities, such as tracks, baseball/softball/soccer fields, swimming pool, etc,a factor in moving up to FCS?
              Last edited by tip79; 06-04-2022, 03:45 PM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by tip79 View Post
                Are other facilities, such as tracks, baseball/softball/soccer fields, swimming pool, etc,a factor in moving up to FCS?
                Not really, the variety of facilities is huge at the FCS level.

                From a GVSU facility standpoint, the track facility would immediately go towards the top of the list in the Horizon League (it's hosted multiple DII nationals, including last weekend). Indoor track GVSU would also have the top or near the top facility. (Although more seating would be really nice).

                From a swimming standpoint, the pool would be mid-pack at best, but GVSU actually does have, deep in the plans, a design to build a new 50 meter pool. I don't see it being done any time soon. The pool GVSU has is adequate for dual / tri meets, but GVSU rents out Jenison HS or the Holland Aquatic Center for major meets like the GLIAC meet.

                I think softball / baseball could use some seating expansion if they moved up, but the are solid facilities.

                The golf course also likely would go to near the top of the Horizon List. GVSU's course has been ranked among the nations top 25 college owned courses in the country, including ranking ahead of both the UofM and MSU courses on one list. (all three in the top 25).

                The lacrosse stadium and soccer stadiums would be just fine and on the better end of the Horizon as well.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by BeachinLaker View Post

                  Imaginary but logical. FCS is where the MAC belongs.
                  Nope, they don't. The reason is $$$$$$$$$. Dropping to FCS would absolutely cripple the conference because of the media rights agreement they have with ESPN. ESPN would pay nothing close to what they pay for the rights to broadcast the MAC currently if the MAC dropped to FCS. People don't realize the true impact of being at the FCS level for these schools. The problems these schools are facing are not related to the division the athletic department is in. They are related to mismanagement and top heavy administration that doesn't have a clue.

                  We have had two major situations with Michigan MAC schools dropping sports in recent years. EMU dropped 4 sports a few years ago for budgetary reasons (men's swimming and wrestling, women's softball and tennis). Since then they have 1) been forced to reinstated women's tennis and 2) added a women's lacrosse program. They dropped what was their most successful program in the MAC (men's swimming) and haven't saved close to the money they said they would from that decision. When they dropped wrestling, they had to later admit they messed up the numbers they allocated to "game day expenses" and had actually double counted those expenses. Also, cutting those men's teams meant they cut spots for roughly 50 athletes who were paying their own way (total cuts were about 70 male athletes, and scholarship limits total were about 20, so 50 were paying their own way to attend the school). The only decision EMU got right was replacing softball with lacrosse on the women's side. That meant they went from having about 5 non-scholarship players to about 20 non-scholarship player paying their own way.

                  CMU dropped their men's track program (but not the cross country program). The program offered 12.6 scholarships (that includes those offered for cross country), and had roughly 25 non-scholarshiped athletes on that program.

                  These are athletes who are now going to other schools to compete.

                  What is interesting is that while D1 schools are dropping these non-revenue sports (and complaining about losing enrollment as well), you see non-D1 schools adding non-revenue sports regularly.

                  In the GLIAC alone, over the last few years we've seen SVSU add men's and women's swimming, NMU reinstate men's swimming, LSSU add men's and women's swimming (they did drop softball a few years ago, due to the fact they could hardly ever play at home), NMU also added a couple other sports as well, Davenport added their swimming programs recently, (Even Aquinas added a swim program), and MTU is rumored to be adding (actually reinstating) their swim programs soon. Why would these schools be adding these sports while the D1 schools are dropping. The answer is simple. The smaller schools realize that the non-revenue sports bring in a lot of students who are not on scholarship to these schools.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by chapmaja View Post

                    Nope, they don't. The reason is $$$$$$$$$. Dropping to FCS would absolutely cripple the conference because of the media rights agreement they have with ESPN. ESPN would pay nothing close to what they pay for the rights to broadcast the MAC currently if the MAC dropped to FCS. People don't realize the true impact of being at the FCS level for these schools. The problems these schools are facing are not related to the division the athletic department is in. They are related to mismanagement and top heavy administration that doesn't have a clue.
                    The MAC TV deal nets each league member significantly less than $1M per year. I'm not saying it's "nothing", but at face value I'm struggling to see the loss of a # like that to be a "crippler" as you suggest...

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Tony Nicolette View Post

                      The MAC TV deal nets each league member significantly less than $1M per year. I'm not saying it's "nothing", but at face value I'm struggling to see the loss of a # like that to be a "crippler" as you suggest...
                      How much is significantly less than $1M?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Tony Nicolette View Post

                        The MAC TV deal nets each league member significantly less than $1M per year. I'm not saying it's "nothing", but at face value I'm struggling to see the loss of a # like that to be a "crippler" as you suggest...
                        Not only that, their fan draw has essentially fallen off the map with those Tuesday games.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by UFOILERFAN View Post

                          How much is significantly less than $1M?
                          Well, it depends on which article one reads regarding the subject. This article states that each school gets $600K per year. In the article here, that # looks like it's more akin to $833K per year. Either # is well below $1M. The average Athletics budget for a MAC school is in the $25M-$26M range, so again...$600-$800K isn't anything to sneeze at, but amounts like these that represent roughly 3% of the average member's budget are not what are keeping the lights on for these programs.
                          Last edited by Tony Nicolette; 06-05-2022, 10:00 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Tony Nicolette View Post

                            The MAC TV deal nets each league member significantly less than $1M per year. I'm not saying it's "nothing", but at face value I'm struggling to see the loss of a # like that to be a "crippler" as you suggest...
                            There is a lot more to it than just the actual $$$$$$ that is mentioned.

                            How much is the exposure each university gets worth?

                            How much is the added benefit that ESPN provides to the conference and member schools worth? What added benefits are included? ESPN and the MAC, as part of the deal, have developed the digital sports profile as well. Additionally ESPN has the rights to sublease rights to broadcasts to regional and other national networks, while the MAC gets a portion of those sublease agreements.

                            One thing that needs to be considered here as well is a comparison. How much is the MAC's media deal compared with the highest deal from a non-FBS conference? Just in basic revenue alone from the deal, without the added benefits, you are talking about about half a million per year in revenue per school by dropping down to the FCS level from FBS.

                            What else would dropping down from FBS to FCS cost you? Each school goes and plays a guarantee game or two during the football season. The amount paid for those games is substantially different if the school is an FBS or FCS program. Dropping down to FCS would cost schools several hundred thousand dollars for each game. Why does this happen? The demand for people see an FCS program playing a major FBS team isn't the same as it is for an FCS team playing at an FBS power. This means lower ticket prices and sales for most places, and thus less revenue to the visiting team.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Tony Nicolette View Post

                              Well, it depends on which article one reads regarding the subject. This article states that each school gets $600K per year. In the article here, that # looks like it's more akin to $833K per year. Either # is well below $1M. The average Athletics budget for a MAC school is in the $25M-$26M range, so again...$600-$800K isn't anything to sneeze at, but amounts like these that represent roughly 3% of the average member's budget are not what are keeping the lights on for these programs.
                              This is also what is keeping the lights on in some of the non-revenue sports at these schools.

                              The yearly budget for some of these non-revenue sports is in the $500,000 per year range at MAC schools. Dropping the athletic program from FBS to FCS cuts a substantial revenue stream in TV rights money, which helps keep some of the non-revenue sports going at these schools. Don't forget, that most of these non-revenue sports are the ones that actually bring in more student athletes than school pays for scholarships. Men's swimming and diving averages about 30 roistered athletes per team, at an NCAA maximum 9.9 scholarships per year. Wrestling was similar. the reason EMU is adding women's lacrosse (to replace softball) is because it is similar. A lacrosse roster is roughly 35 athletes and is about 13 scholarships, compared with 18 softball players and 13 scholarships maximum. These athletes paying their way to attend a school make a big difference. This is what you are seeing smaller schools adding sports regularly. It is something that the administration at most larger schools have yet to grasp.

                              Comment


                              • Interesting conversation, Chap. I'll start by saying that I don't necessarily believe that MAC schools should be FCS. I was simply responding to your assertion in post 338 that the media rights money is why MAC schools don't belong in FCS.

                                I still contend that the media rights money these schools get is not the "crippler" you asserted in that same post. Do they get some additional soft dollar value from the exposure? OK...I can grant you that, but that hardly turns the 3% of their budget that the hard dollars provide into something truly major. I mean, let's be honest, that exposure's impact has limits.

                                In subsequent posts, you have added additional rationales around other money factors why MAC schools don't belong in FCS:
                                • Money Games - Sure, they do get more as a MAC school than they would as an FCS school. No argument. BUT, there is more to the story here. Don't forget that as FBS schools, MAC schools are also the PAYER in money games. EVERY MAC school has at least one FCS opponent on their 2022 schedule. I will absolutely agree that the net of these non-con games is a positive cash flow to MAC members. 100% true. BUT, is it bringing millions in every year to each school in a fashion that offsets a large percentage of their athletics budget? I bet we could find a couple instances where that is the case, but we could also find others where it isn't. It's important, sure, but it has its caveats and isn't universally a boon for every school.
                                • Non-Revenue Sports - Yep, totally with you that those media rights dollars have an impact. I guess I would submit that a drop to FCS would also present a decrease in the need for those dollars via a reduction in the overall athletics budget:
                                  • Dropping football schollie load from 85 to 63 (double benefit here, as cost drops and students paying tuition increases)
                                  • FCS coaching staffs make less across the board vs. FBS coaching staffs
                                  • Athletic departments in FCS in total are smaller and less costly vs. their FBS counterparts
                                • More non-Rev Athletes Enrolled - Yep, 100% agree that many schools use athletics as a way to have more students on campus that are paying their own way, and that keeping those sports around is important. Is the $800K (on the high side) of the media rights keeping a couple of sports going? Perhaps, but would the reductions in costs of being FCS reduce the school's athletics budget by a commensurate amount that would keep those same kids on campus and paying tuition? One could argue it might.

                                Look, I'll re-state: I am not out here trying to say that MAC schools should be FCS. I agree with you that when you add all of your instances together there is a net dollar benefit to being in the MAC vs. FCS. I still don't think it's a windfall, however, and moreover isn't a silver bullet to why they should be at any level in particular. It's a very nuanced situation.

                                Since we are on this walk, the ultimate position I hold is that there is a good-sized portion of the current NCAA membership that actually belongs somewhere that doesn't yet exist. Let's face it: In principle, MAC schools are FBS the same as any of the Power 5 schools are FBS. Average MAC budget? $25-$26M per my prior post. Average Big Ten budget? Roughly $100M. Average SEC budget? Almost $99M. The "poorest" of the P5 conferences, the ACC, still has an average athletics budget of $57M. That landscape is decidedly slanted.

                                I'm with you that MAC members need every dollar they can scrounge, but I would submit that every time they find one dollar, the P5 schools are finding two or three. So, do MAC schools belong in FBS in general? I would argue not through the lens that NO G5 school stands a chance in general against what the P5 schools have and are capable of. Does that mean they should be FCS? I don't agree with that either, but I could argue they fit more closely with FCS than they do P5.

                                Not to put too fine a point on it, one other thing to look at is WHERE the $ comes from. On average, the $100M Big Ten budgets only pull 7% of their funds from the government, student fees, and their school's general fund. When it comes to the $26M MAC budgets, 79% of those dollars come from those same sources. Think about that...MAC schools actually provide more than double the amount of cash to their athletic departments compared to their Big Ten counterparts, so they can have a 1/4 of the total budget. That math simply doesn't add up to any sort of level playing field, let alone offer a path to any sort of true competitiveness or value derivation. The P5 are in a space unto themselves. It's not a bad thing...it is what it is. This site spells a lot of this out...it's great info.

                                Would be way easier to discuss this vs. trying to type all of these things. Perhaps this is fodder for future broadcasts from the great Media Mind of Misener?

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