Survival of schools (Thoughts??)

[Brandon]

12% to be precise.

There is a story that they expert herd immunity within weeks.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/22/no-l...-in-weeks.html

[GorillaTeacher]

[cwfenn]

Has anyone actually spoken with students about their experiences with online classes? The ones I have do not like it and are clamoring to be back on campus. While I agree with the loss of worthless majors, I'm not yet convinced a majority of the traditional students will go for the online college experience. I do think things will look different...if college football gets taken away in the fall I think that will really change the sports landscape...losing out on all the money from CFB will kill college sports as we know it.

I'm a college professor who has taught both face-to-face and online courses over the years and I have seen advantages to both modalities. However, I have heard from a significant number of my students that the online format is giving them a lot of difficulty, even though they can go through my lectures and (for the most part) work at their own pace. There's just something about being able to go to a classroom and actually perform the act of learning without having a world of distractions at home, and many of my students miss it (but at the same time they don't want to go back until they know they're safe). In my school's case, there's also the interaction of technology and peoples' resources - I don't teach the most wealthy of students and many of them have very tough situations to deal with at home and at work, so it is difficult to make expectations when it comes to technology and being a student at home.

[libertybearcat]

I'm a college professor who has taught both face-to-face and online courses over the years and I have seen advantages to both modalities. However, I have heard from a significant number of my students that the online format is giving them a lot of difficulty, even though they can go through my lectures and (for the most part) work at their own pace. There's just something about being able to go to a classroom and actually perform the act of learning without having a world of distractions at home, and many of my students miss it (but at the same time they don't want to go back until they know they're safe). In my school's case, there's also the interaction of technology and peoples' resources - I don't teach the most wealthy of students and many of them have very tough situations to deal with at home and at work, so it is difficult to make expectations when it comes to technology and being a student at home.

I have one in college, (plus some of her friends) another one will be next fall and I deal with my Fraternity at NW, haven't really heard anyone that likes the online experience.

[libertybearcat]

Sweden has 192 deaths per million the US 141...So is Japan doing the opposite of the US...claiming deaths as caused by something other than Covid-19 whereas the US has started claiming deaths with a positive test as being a death from Covid-19 vs a death with it?

South Korea has 5 deaths per million, they largely kept their economy open. Europe has taken similar actions as the US and they have some of the highest per million death rates Spain 464 Italy 415, France 327, UK 267, Belgium 540, Germany is an outlier at 62, Portugal 77, Netherlands 237, Switzerland 174, etc.

I'm not saying for sure what the US is doing works or doesn't we don't know for sure, but there are other countries who didn't take the draconian measures of shutting down the economy who have lower death rates than the US does.

Do only deaths from Covid-19 count? What about the deaths that happen during economic crisis where ten's of millions of people lose their jobs...

When I get into conversations with people about this I've started to ask if they're still getting a paycheck or not...seems like those who still are getting one are more okay with being told what to do with this versus those of us who don't.

How about the recent studies from Stanford and another one in NorCal where they're saying the infection rate is 25 to 55 times higher than what is being reported...once antibody tests start cominmg in their models suggest a death rate of POINT1% or lower, similar to the flu...if we can use the models that said as many as 200M would die, seems like we can also use these models...since they're all coming from academia and all. Right?

[libertybearcat]

I can definitely see that being a major where on campus is really important..

As to the latter part. Big time college sports is so far removed from its' original purpose that it might be a good thing in some ways.

As far as online classes go, my oldest is very into her studies...nothing like her old man...if it was easier, I'd have been all for it! :) But yes, engineering majors are certainly more hands on.

I agree that football is, for the most part men's hoops too, what about the other sports and women's sports? Plus, since we're on a D2 fan site, I was thinking more about the lower levels too.

[NWFanatic]

The next concern will be food shortages. Numerous packing plants are closed/operating below capacity etc and cattle/hogs/chickens are being or will soon be euthanized and burned/buried.

[GorillaTeacher]

Sweden has 192 deaths per million the US 141...So is Japan doing the opposite of the US...claiming deaths as caused by something other than Covid-19 whereas the US has started claiming deaths with a positive test as being a death from Covid-19 vs a death with it?

South Korea has 5 deaths per million, they largely kept their economy open. Europe has taken similar actions as the US and they have some of the highest per million death rates Spain 464 Italy 415, France 327, UK 267, Belgium 540, Germany is an outlier at 62, Portugal 77, Netherlands 237, Switzerland 174, etc.

I'm not saying for sure what the US is doing works or doesn't we don't know for sure, but there are other countries who didn't take the draconian measures of shutting down the economy who have lower death rates than the US does.

Do only deaths from Covid-19 count? What about the deaths that happen during economic crisis where ten's of millions of people lose their jobs...

When I get into conversations with people about this I've started to ask if they're still getting a paycheck or not...seems like those who still are getting one are more okay with being told what to do with this versus those of us who don't.

How about the recent studies from Stanford and another one in NorCal where they're saying the infection rate is 25 to 55 times higher than what is being reported...once antibody tests start cominmg in their models suggest a death rate of POINT1% or lower, similar to the flu...if we can use the models that said as many as 200M would die, seems like we can also use these models...since they're all coming from academia and all. Right?

[Wallst]

I think one thing that most of you are missing in regards to online vs campus classes is that these kids have all had the campus experience. If there is not class in the fall, this years seniors who are incoming college freshmen won't know the difference. They won't know gameday atmosphere, fraternities or sororities etc. Additionally the vast majority of freshman classes can easily be taught online

The current kids will get ripped off on finishing the college on campus experience but the incoming kids won't know any better.

What I see happening is a return to trade schools such as another poster outlined with MW vs NW.

I found this to be a fascinating read https://finance.yahoo.com/news/nyu-m...201541903.html

[backintheday]

I think one thing that most of you are missing in regards to online vs campus classes is that these kids have all had the campus experience. If there is not class in the fall, this years seniors who are incoming college freshmen won't know the difference. They won't know gameday atmosphere, fraternities or sororities etc. Additionally the vast majority of freshman classes can easily be taught online

The current kids will get ripped off on finishing the college on campus experience but the incoming kids won't know any better.

What I see happening is a return to trade schools such as another poster outlined with MW vs NW.

I found this to be a fascinating read https://finance.yahoo.com/news/nyu-m...201541903.html

I'd previously read that article and also found it fascinating. I particularly liked his revealing that

"No industry, other than health care, has raised its prices faster than education". no other entity seems to escape pricing scrutiny like education. Administrations are top heavy in ways no for profit entity could get away with.

He also accurately puts the spotlight on the "cartel" that is education in America today. Why wouldn't there be a cartel when dollars are in endless supply through loans to students pursuing degrees that have little to no chance of landing gainful employment.

He is so on target with saying

"One of the moral bankrupt parts of our society is how much we are charging young people." People used to get a far more rigorous education and resulting degree for far less money than today's students are held hostage to pay. IMO, there should not be student loan forgiveness but downward pressure on pricing. We can only hope the author is correct that the current crisis will produce just that.

Lastly, when he says "we need to abolish tenure", truer words were never spoken. What real job in the for profit world would allow the tenure system?

[NWHoops]

I'd previously read that article and also found it fascinating. I particularly liked his revealing that

"No industry, other than health care, has raised its prices faster than education". no other entity seems to escape pricing scrutiny like education. Administrations are top heavy in ways no for profit entity could get away with.

He also accurately puts the spotlight on the "cartel" that is education in America today. Why wouldn't there be a cartel when dollars are in endless supply through loans to students pursuing degrees that have little to no chance of landing gainful employment.

He is so on target with saying

"One of the moral bankrupt parts of our society is how much we are charging young people." People used to get a far more rigorous education and resulting degree for far less money than today's students are held hostage to pay. IMO, there should not be student loan forgiveness but downward pressure on pricing. We can only hope the author is correct that the current crisis will produce just that.

Lastly, when he says "we need to abolish tenure", truer words were never spoken. What real job in the for profit world would allow the tenure system?

While it's undeniable that the cost of college has gone up, there are other factors at play that are costing students more money.

One example in Missouri is that 30-40 years ago the state covered 70% of a university's operating costs and the students were responsible for 30%. With the divestment in higher ed that has now completely flipped where students are responsible for 70% and the state covers 30%. BEFORE the cuts to this fiscal year due to COVID, MO institutions were receiving the same funding as in 1983. That's not counting for inflation. That's in real dollars.

Also, higher education is the 2nd most regulated industry in the country behind only airlines. The more regulations in place, the more administrators are needed to make sure institutions are in compliance with the regulations.

[backintheday]

While it's undeniable that the cost of college has gone up, there are other factors at play that are costing students more money.

One example in Missouri is that 30-40 years ago the state covered 70% of a university's operating costs and the students were responsible for 30%. With the divestment in higher ed that has now completely flipped where students are responsible for 70% and the state covers 30%. BEFORE the cuts to this fiscal year due to COVID, MO institutions were receiving the same funding as in 1983. That's not counting for inflation. That's in real dollars.

Also, higher education is the 2nd most regulated industry in the country behind only airlines. The more regulations in place, the more administrators are needed to make sure institutions are in compliance with the regulations.

I have no quarrel with your assertion about the payor mix but the point is the amount paid is much too high for the value received irrespective of who is paying.

I do however take great issue with your assertion that higher education is the second most regulated industry in the country. I frankly didn't believe it, so I looked it up and readily found 4 different sources ranking the most regulated industries and education didn't make the top 10 for any of them nor were airlines ranked #1 in any of them. The industries that did make it square with my perception including petroleum and coal manufacturing, banking, pharmaceuticals and health care. I frankly doubt that education is subject to any regulation that rivals that of the most regulated industries.

http://www.perillon.com/blog/10-most...ries-in-the-us

[NWHoops]

I have no quarrel with your assertion about the payor mix but the point is the amount paid is much too high for the value received irrespective of who is paying.

I do however take great issue with your assertion that higher education is the second most regulated industry in the country. I frankly didn't believe it, so I looked it up and readily found 4 different sources ranking the most regulated industries and education didn't make the top 10 for any of them nor were airlines ranked #1 in any of them. The industries that did make it square with my perception including petroleum and coal manufacturing, banking, pharmaceuticals and health care. I frankly doubt that education is subject to any regulation that rivals that of the most regulated industries.

http://www.perillon.com/blog/10-most...ries-in-the-us

I have nothing to back it up other than I was at a speaking engagement and one of the speakers (who does a national circuit) referenced it. I do not know where they received their data from.

[Predatory Primates]

I have no quarrel with your assertion about the payor mix but the point is the amount paid is much too high for the value received irrespective of who is paying.

I do however take great issue with your assertion that higher education is the second most regulated industry in the country. I frankly didn't believe it, so I looked it up and readily found 4 different sources ranking the most regulated industries and education didn't make the top 10 for any of them nor were airlines ranked #1 in any of them. The industries that did make it square with my perception including petroleum and coal manufacturing, banking, pharmaceuticals and health care. I frankly doubt that education is subject to any regulation that rivals that of the most regulated industries.

http://www.perillon.com/blog/10-most...ries-in-the-us

Agreed on all counts. Prof salaries have remained fairly stagnant while the cost of higher ed has skyrocketed. That is a pretty good indicator of how top heavy these institutions are.

[Predatory Primates]

I think tuition at Pitt was around 700 bucks in 88 when I started there.