West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

[Sportsnut]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Everything in colleges and universities cost a lot of money! Most academics are liberials who love to spend other peoples money!

[boatcapt]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Same question about the Sousaphone player who dots the I at Ohio State football games. Wonder if he would be in college without a music scholly??
I also wonder if band programs at colleges are money makers for schools or money losers? I mean, athletic programs get criticized for "costing the school money"...maybe we should ask if other extracurricular activities cost schools money as well??

[MrAugustana]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Good points. I would recommend very harsh financial penalties for tampering by a school to lure someone away. Fundamental philosophical question is whose rights have precedence, the individual or the program. After all football is just an extracurricular activity that is not relevant to academic achievement of the student which is the mission of higher education.
I share your concern about the rich getting richer in the Clemson example. But if that was really a primary concern of NCAA then they would restrict coaches salaries, penalize coaches who are poached by other schools and stop the insane facilities arms race. Imho the real intent of the NCAA is protecting the rich not the poor (Pitt) and the revenue stream by keeping 2nd string Clemson players from transferring to Pitt and jeopardizing their nc chances. Only 24 programs are not losing money. Everyone has freedom but the players. Try to major in medicine or engineering. You will get push back to steer u toward a more football friendly major. Football needs take precedence over academics.

I'd be curious to know the statistics of the number of kids who would never even be in higher education if they weren't able to do it through a sports scholarship of some nature. Sure there are probably hundreds who would've just gone to college like the rest of the non-athletes enrolled at colleges/universities right now, but I would be willing to bet there are also hundreds (if not thousands) who would never have a chance to attend college without a scholarship (or wouldn't go to college if they weren't going to play sports). So to say sports are just "an extracurricular activity that is not relevant to academic achievement of the student" is a bit of an overstatement/generalization.

Unless I misunderstood your intent with that comment.

[IUP Extra Mile]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

He had 1 year of football eligibility remaining but had 2 years of basketball eligibility.

That was my exact understanding

[Columbuseer]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

I thought Monteroso was a senior last year. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he was also a football player last year and the MEC football stats page from the past season had him as a senior.

He had 1 year of football eligibility remaining but had 2 years of basketball eligibility.

[cavsfan94]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Headed into the season I see the depth chart as:

PG Arnold, Dyer
SG Monteroso, French, Primmer
SG Smith, Allen
F Meininger, Moore, Ochoa
SF Griffin, Bolton

I see Saben and Yoakum redshirting.

First 15 games the 12 players minus Monteroso will get roughly the same playing time. After that the bench will be trimmed to 9 or 10 players with the starters averaging 25 to 30 minutes a game and the next 4 or 5 averaging 10 to 15 per game.

I think Arnold is a capable replacement for Dennis. Maybe not as good as he was but certainly not as bad as some might think. On a per minute basis, Arnold scores at a .41 pt/min pace and got .11 ast/min last season. Dennis scored at a .43 pt/min and got .18 ast/min last season. Give Arnold the same minutes as Dennis and he would have averaged 13.3 PPG and 3.8 Ast/g...for comparison Dennis averaged 13.9 PPG and 6 Ast/g. Critical question I have is weather Dyer is capable of 80-100 assists and 8 to 9 PPG as Arnolds principle back up.

I feel really good about Monteroso! I think he will have a huge season. For the first time ever he will be going into a basketball season well rested and I think that will show.

Smith I feel comfortable with as well. I look to him to be the do everything guy that the most successful WLU teams seem to always have.

Griffin I'm a little unsure of. Had VERY low expecations of him last year and he exceded them by a mile. Was it just a really good season or did we underestimate him?

Meininger needs to understand his role and do it. He is our lone "big man" and needs to play that role to a fault. Not saying he should NEVER take a 3 try but if he's taking more than one a game...that's tooooo many. Clean the offensive and defensive glass, play strong inside D and get blocks and putbacks.

The real problem is depth. Only players off the bench with game experience are French and Primmer. French needs to become the consistent scorer we have seen hints of over his WLU career and Primmer needs to flat step it up.

Of the rookies, I think Dyer will have a big year and I think Allen and Moore could exceed expectations. For WLU to be truly be successful...they will need to!!

I thought Monteroso was a senior last year. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he was also a football player last year and the MEC football stats page from the past season had him as a senior.

[boatcapt]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Outside of PG and maybe WLU's version of a "big", WLU really has no positions...at least none I can identify! Seems that all WLU players have a core skill set (deadly shooter, good ball handler, strong D, quick and will run the floor). Beyond that core, each player has additional skills that complment each other...Monteroso is a high flying slasher...French has a quick release and can drain 3's on the move...Arnold is cat quick and can blow by the best of them to get his shot...Smith does everthing well but is not the best at any one thing...etc.

Crutch was very adept at getting the right mix of skills on the court and maybe more importantly recognizing in game when it was time for a change. Howlett has studied at Crutch's arm for many years so he understands how to manage a game the "WLU way"...The question is can he do it now that he is at the helm. Until he proves he can, I think the jury is out on him. He's probably the best equipped to do it and I think he will be up to the task but I just might have my "fan goggles" on!!!

[Columbuseer]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Great analysis. I think monterosa could be all region at least. Allen and Esa Ahmad at wvu were d1 players of yr in Ohio in 2014 so he could push to start after 15 games if he can adjust. Last year Griffin really stepped up after he cut his hair (the reverse samson effect lol). If he continues to crash the boards, I could see him playing F position in some situations where you want max slashers on court to get other team in foul trouble.
Bolon wearing segers number and is a deadly 3pt shooter.
Arnold is much better outside shooter than Dennis. Dennis had better handles but some of that skill was overkill. Key is whether Arnold has basketball iq of Dennis. I really like Arnold on defense chasing down guys from behind. Great speed.
As you said, a lot of unknowns from a depth perspective.

[boatcapt]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Headed into the season I see the depth chart as:

PG Arnold, Dyer
SG Monteroso, French, Primmer
SG Smith, Allen
F Meininger, Moore, Ochoa
SF Griffin, Bolton

I see Saben and Yoakum redshirting.

First 15 games the 12 players minus Monteroso will get roughly the same playing time. After that the bench will be trimmed to 9 or 10 players with the starters averaging 25 to 30 minutes a game and the next 4 or 5 averaging 10 to 15 per game.

I think Arnold is a capable replacement for Dennis. Maybe not as good as he was but certainly not as bad as some might think. On a per minute basis, Arnold scores at a .41 pt/min pace and got .11 ast/min last season. Dennis scored at a .43 pt/min and got .18 ast/min last season. Give Arnold the same minutes as Dennis and he would have averaged 13.3 PPG and 3.8 Ast/g...for comparison Dennis averaged 13.9 PPG and 6 Ast/g. Critical question I have is weather Dyer is capable of 80-100 assists and 8 to 9 PPG as Arnolds principle back up.

I feel really good about Monteroso! I think he will have a huge season. For the first time ever he will be going into a basketball season well rested and I think that will show.

Smith I feel comfortable with as well. I look to him to be the do everything guy that the most successful WLU teams seem to always have.

Griffin I'm a little unsure of. Had VERY low expecations of him last year and he exceded them by a mile. Was it just a really good season or did we underestimate him?

Meininger needs to understand his role and do it. He is our lone "big man" and needs to play that role to a fault. Not saying he should NEVER take a 3 try but if he's taking more than one a game...that's tooooo many. Clean the offensive and defensive glass, play strong inside D and get blocks and putbacks.

The real problem is depth. Only players off the bench with game experience are French and Primmer. French needs to become the consistent scorer we have seen hints of over his WLU career and Primmer needs to flat step it up.

Of the rookies, I think Dyer will have a big year and I think Allen and Moore could exceed expectations. For WLU to be truly be successful...they will need to!!

[Columbuseer]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Who starts first game against Cheney state? guys could move up in Feb based on play.
Group 1
Monterosa
Arnold
French
Smith
Meininger
Allen
Bolon
Group 2
Primmer
Saben
Moore

[Columbuseer]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Couple of comments about non-compete as I have some exposure to that.
1. Trend is that it is hard to enforce and win in court. IP theft is different issue.
2. You cannot prohibit someone from making a living. For example you cannot prohibit me from writing software if I am a developer.
3. Sometimes a distance factor is included as a constraint. Guess that is similar to not transferring in conference.

[Columbuseer]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

The non compete example reflects that it is a job, which i agree. By pretending it is not a job, everyone benefits but the players. I would have no problem with a minor league for football totally decoupled from the school and the pretense of serious academics. Then a lot of my concerns would go away. Pay them as employees, make them eligible for workers comp ( ha the premiums would kill football right away) and develop players who don't have grades to get into college. How many big daddy Lipscomb's are there who are losing millions today? ( Young guys hit wiki now lol ) . As a fringe benefit, they can go to college, tech school etc. of their choice after football and the league picks up the tab.

Slow time this summer. Got to talk about something lol

[boatcapt]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Good points. I would recommend very harsh financial penalties for tampering by a school to lure someone away. Fundamental philosophical question is whose rights have precedence, the individual or the program. After all football is just an extracurricular activity that is not relevant to academic achievement of the student which is the mission of higher education.
I share your concern about the rich getting richer in the Clemson example. But if that was really a primary concern of NCAA then they would restrict coaches salaries, penalize coaches who are poached by other schools and stop the insane facilities arms race. Imho the real intent of the NCAA is protecting the rich not the poor (Pitt) and the revenue stream by keeping 2nd string Clemson players from transferring to Pitt and jeopardizing their nc chances. Only 24 programs are not losing money. Everyone has freedom but the players. Try to major in medicine or engineering. You will get push back to steer u toward a more football friendly major. Football needs take precedence over academics.

The players are not restricted from transferring for academics. What they are sometimes restricted from is participating in an extra curricular activity for a year at their new school. The gaining college can chose to give the transferring player a scholarship if they believe it is in their best interest to do so, even when that player is "sitting out."

Weather we want to admit it or not, big time D1's expend a huge amount of money on each of their football players. This money is intended to make the player better which in turn makes the team better. I consider this akin to what companies do with their newly hired employees in some jobs. Typical in some highly competitive job tracks and businesses in a no compete clause for people who avail themselves of the training and professional experience they gain at one company and then taking that across the street to a competitor. I see this as similar...colleges are protecting the large investment they have made in making the player better by preventing them from taking those skills "across the street" to an in-conf foe or a foe that they are scheduled to play.

I've got no love for the NCAA and they have become an organization who's primary purpose is to protect big money D1 football and basketball programs but unfortunately for them, they can't establish rules that only apply to big money programs OR exempt big money programs from rules that affect the rest of D1. I'm sure they would love to establish a rule that said players have the right to unrestricted transfer to any program...except for players at these high profile programs who's transfer can still be restricted.

[Columbuseer]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Thanks for the link. I read article. Looks like this law firm has NCAA in their sites and continues to sue. In general I find it Interesting how lawyers can lose repeatedly, then find the right combination of plaintiff, judge and legal argument to win and then all heck breaks loose. Kind of like Al Davis trying to move raiders from a city.

[Columbuseer]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Good points. I would recommend very harsh financial penalties for tampering by a school to lure someone away. Fundamental philosophical question is whose rights have precedence, the individual or the program. After all football is just an extracurricular activity that is not relevant to academic achievement of the student which is the mission of higher education.
I share your concern about the rich getting richer in the Clemson example. But if that was really a primary concern of NCAA then they would restrict coaches salaries, penalize coaches who are poached by other schools and stop the insane facilities arms race. Imho the real intent of the NCAA is protecting the rich not the poor (Pitt) and the revenue stream by keeping 2nd string Clemson players from transferring to Pitt and jeopardizing their nc chances. Only 24 programs are not losing money. Everyone has freedom but the players. Try to major in medicine or engineering. You will get push back to steer u toward a more football friendly major. Football needs take precedence over academics.