VC Transfers

[Columbuseer]

I think the transfer portal will eventually reach some equilibrium, but we are not there yet.
1. There will be a significant number of players left standing alone at the altar of the transfer portal.
2. Some great d2 players will get limited minutes, especially in the higher echelon d1 schools.
3. Players will look in the mirror and realize they do not have the measurables to make the NBA regardless of their skills and what their handlers say. So why go to a d1 star system, high ball screen dribble drive offense rather than a euro style offense team so one can play overseas?
4. I can always dream, but maybe, just maybe players will start considering their academic future first, then basketball second.

what we need is a neutral, outside group that can assess the player's skills prior to going to the portal. Kind of like getting an nba assessment so players can make decisions based on reality.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

I'm a WSU fan and can say that Tony took over a run-down Cougar program. His dad coached it for 3 years, but even he couldn't get the Cougars up and running with 3 straight losing seasons, the last one last in the conference. That said, he did set a foundation for Tony with some good recruits and a system that worked well for tiny/remote Pullman, Washington. He had two 25-win seasons and a Sweet 16 berth, they haven't done that since he left. They were consistently among the leaders in the nation in defense at WSU and now at UVa. It's not a pleasing system to the eyes, it's a grind-it-out/run the shot clock down, play rugged defense. It created a national title.

I'll give the poster one thing: If the lined up and played rat ball vs. UMBC, they run them off the court. Also, Tony left in a hurry out of Pullman, barely acknowledging the fans and the school that gave him his first head coaching job when previously before coming as lead assistant, he was the No. 4 assistant at Wisconsin and couldn't get a MAC interview. Most D-1 rich, fat cats are the most ungrateful people on the planet. Apparently God told him to take the UVa job, according to Tony and his wife. God told me I'm supposed to date a supermodel ... I'm still waiting.

D-1 ball is getting unwatchable, I liked watching players go through their career at a school. Now it's 1-and-done or 3-schools or even 4 schools. Coach K, Izzo, nasty Boeheim, cheatin' Roy, and others, could've changed the whole AAU and transfer culture, but they didn't want to do it because it served THEM.

I hope D2 ball doesn't become D1 ball.

My greatest fear is we become the minor leagues -- meaning players come here to develop and 'build their brand' and then jump ship after 1-2 years.

Believe me, Dale Bonner signing with Baylor could be the fuel to really, really change things. Not only will players across D2 see this, but so will coaches. For years I think the notion of a mighty D1 being interested in D2 players was seen as taboo. Now, we've seen D2 players sign with high-level mid-majors, the defending D1 champion, the Big 10, etc.

Dale Bonner is a very good player. Baylor good? We'll see. Being honest, he wasn't even the best player in the Atlantic Region (you could argue maybe not even at Fairmont State). So, will others in the Atlantic see this and start to wonder?

IUP has one of the best players in the country in Armoni Foster (IUP didn't play this year). If I was Joe Lombardi, I'd probably lock him up on campus lol.

Trust me. I get it for Dale Bonner. The bush leagues to the penthouse. Great for him. But, I'm a D2 fan. So, these jumps worry me.

[Fightingscot82]

--------
FYI Just an interesting factoid.

Former President Trump's uncle was a world renowned professor at MIT. it is fallacious reasoning to assume he was not qualified for Penn, just as it is fallacious reasoning to assume that he was a brilliant student just because his uncle was smart. It is an open question.

According to MIT, Prof John Trump focused on high voltage phenomena, electron acceleration and the interaction of radiation with living and non-living matter. He also designed X-ray generators for cancer therapy.
During World War Two, Prof Trump researched radars for the Allies. When legendary physicist Nikola Tesla died in 1943, Prof Trump was asked by the FBI to examine Tesla's papers and equipment.
Prof Trump co-founded a company making generators for use in nuclear research, according to MIT archives.
-----------

Back on topic, it is really disheartening to hear about the dearth of scholarships at Penn State. A close friend's daughter got a full ride to Ohio State that was awarded by a major science Corp and I got the impression they were also as scarce as hen's teeth for non athletes.

Might be a good freedom of information request to see stats on full rides for public colleges.

In Pennsylvania, Penn State (as well as state-funded Pitt and Temple) aren't subject to FOI. The PSAC schools are fully covered since they're state owned and operated. If a student gets a full ride, they are usually one of a handful of honors students.

[Columbuseer]

Have you watched the Netflix documentary on it? I think it explains pretty well how all of this went down.

Jared Kushner is a common example of donor money getting a kid into a school that would never have accepted him. Its assumed his father in law got into Penn with similar circumstances. In lower profile schools you know damn well this happens all the time but probably not so clear that it assumes quid-pro-quo.

For scholarships, it depends on the type of school. Public vs private matters big time. Private schools at all levels just discount tuition and call it a scholarship. Average private school basically gives most students a 50% off coupon. At the DII level, public schools usually don't have the academic scholarship dollars that they have in athletics. So overall academic scholarships are the overwhelming majority of private school "scholarships" but its all part of the business model. At state schools, its athletics. Some big time state schools have very little academic scholarship money. Penn State is notorious for low academic scholarships. My sister 20+ years ago had a 1500 SAT and 4.3 weighted GPA and only got $2,500 a year at Penn State when small dinky privates were offering free rides.

--------
FYI Just an interesting factoid.

Former President Trump's uncle was a world renowned professor at MIT. it is fallacious reasoning to assume he was not qualified for Penn, just as it is fallacious reasoning to assume that he was a brilliant student just because his uncle was smart. It is an open question.

According to MIT, Prof John Trump focused on high voltage phenomena, electron acceleration and the interaction of radiation with living and non-living matter. He also designed X-ray generators for cancer therapy.
During World War Two, Prof Trump researched radars for the Allies. When legendary physicist Nikola Tesla died in 1943, Prof Trump was asked by the FBI to examine Tesla's papers and equipment.
Prof Trump co-founded a company making generators for use in nuclear research, according to MIT archives.
-----------

Back on topic, it is really disheartening to hear about the dearth of scholarships at Penn State. A close friend's daughter got a full ride to Ohio State that was awarded by a major science Corp and I got the impression they were also as scarce as hen's teeth for non athletes.

Might be a good freedom of information request to see stats on full rides for public colleges.

[Columbuseer]

I'm a WSU fan and can say that Tony took over a run-down Cougar program. His dad coached it for 3 years, but even he couldn't get the Cougars up and running with 3 straight losing seasons, the last one last in the conference. That said, he did set a foundation for Tony with some good recruits and a system that worked well for tiny/remote Pullman, Washington. He had two 25-win seasons and a Sweet 16 berth, they haven't done that since he left. They were consistently among the leaders in the nation in defense at WSU and now at UVa. It's not a pleasing system to the eyes, it's a grind-it-out/run the shot clock down, play rugged defense. It created a national title.

I'll give the poster one thing: If the lined up and played rat ball vs. UMBC, they run them off the court. Also, Tony left in a hurry out of Pullman, barely acknowledging the fans and the school that gave him his first head coaching job when previously before coming as lead assistant, he was the No. 4 assistant at Wisconsin and couldn't get a MAC interview. Most D-1 rich, fat cats are the most ungrateful people on the planet. Apparently God told him to take the UVa job, according to Tony and his wife. God told me I'm supposed to date a supermodel ... I'm still waiting.

D-1 ball is getting unwatchable, I liked watching players go through their career at a school. Now it's 1-and-done or 3-schools or even 4 schools. Coach K, Izzo, nasty Boeheim, cheatin' Roy, and others, could've changed the whole AAU and transfer culture, but they didn't want to do it because it served THEM.

I hope D2 ball doesn't become D1 ball.

Great insights.
I wish ncaa would add stats for a team's points per possession and points per possession allowed ( opponent). The opponent points scored per game is misleading because it is skewed by pace of play. Only 7% of d1 teams exceed 1.0 points per possession. Gonzaga, nwmsu and wlu are over 1.25 while also having large scoring margins ( which indicates difference in points per possession compared to opponent).

[tsull]

I'm a WSU fan and can say that Tony took over a run-down Cougar program. His dad coached it for 3 years, but even he couldn't get the Cougars up and running with 3 straight losing seasons, the last one last in the conference. That said, he did set a foundation for Tony with some good recruits and a system that worked well for tiny/remote Pullman, Washington. He had two 25-win seasons and a Sweet 16 berth, they haven't done that since he left. They were consistently among the leaders in the nation in defense at WSU and now at UVa. It's not a pleasing system to the eyes, it's a grind-it-out/run the shot clock down, play rugged defense. It created a national title.

I'll give the poster one thing: If the lined up and played rat ball vs. UMBC, they run them off the court. Also, Tony left in a hurry out of Pullman, barely acknowledging the fans and the school that gave him his first head coaching job when previously before coming as lead assistant, he was the No. 4 assistant at Wisconsin and couldn't get a MAC interview. Most D-1 rich, fat cats are the most ungrateful people on the planet. Apparently God told him to take the UVa job, according to Tony and his wife. God told me I'm supposed to date a supermodel ... I'm still waiting.

D-1 ball is getting unwatchable, I liked watching players go through their career at a school. Now it's 1-and-done or 3-schools or even 4 schools. Coach K, Izzo, nasty Boeheim, cheatin' Roy, and others, could've changed the whole AAU and transfer culture, but they didn't want to do it because it served THEM.

I hope D2 ball doesn't become D1 ball.

[Fightingscot82]

Have you watched the Netflix documentary on it? I think it explains pretty well how all of this went down.

Jared Kushner is a common example of donor money getting a kid into a school that would never have accepted him. Its assumed his father in law got into Penn with similar circumstances. In lower profile schools you know damn well this happens all the time but probably not so clear that it assumes quid-pro-quo.

For scholarships, it depends on the type of school. Public vs private matters big time. Private schools at all levels just discount tuition and call it a scholarship. Average private school basically gives most students a 50% off coupon. At the DII level, public schools usually don't have the academic scholarship dollars that they have in athletics. So overall academic scholarships are the overwhelming majority of private school "scholarships" but its all part of the business model. At state schools, its athletics. Some big time state schools have very little academic scholarship money. Penn State is notorious for low academic scholarships. My sister 20+ years ago had a 1500 SAT and 4.3 weighted GPA and only got $2,500 a year at Penn State when small dinky privates were offering free rides.

[Columbuseer]

For the truly elite D1 academic schools (Duke, Stanford, Northwestern, Rice, Vanderbilt, Notre Dame, Cal, etc) the players still have to fit a much higher admission criteria than say, Ohio State. Head coaches, ADs, and senior Admissions folk usually agree on a number of "spots" each team gets (including transfers) as long as they meet the lower admission standard, which is usually only a standard deviation or two away from the other kids. Johnny Football with his 1,000 SAT and 2.75 GPA doesn't even get recruited. This is also usually used for kids of big time alumni. The mean & median scores of standard applicants usually covers for the lower criteria so the rankings folk and general snooty alumni never notice.

The G5 and Mid Major programs - YIKES. When I worked at one D1 school I started noticing how poorly the men's basketball players could communicate, so I got curious and looked up admissions info. Of the players who came in as true freshmen, the average SAT was something just above 800. Sheesh.

[Fightingscot82]

FYI
Elite academic D1 schools have lower admission standards for athletes so it is much easier for athletes to get accepted than for non athletes who want to attend solely to learn. I would not be surprised if there are far fewer full ride (tuition, books, and room and board) scholarships available for brilliant students than for athletes. We may be losing our science and technology leadership, but the world will never catch up to the USA in basketball! ;-)


from uva report in 2019
https://news.virginia.edu/content/un...udent-athletes
...

UVA assigns ultimate authority for decisions regarding student-athlete admissions to the dean of undergraduate admission.

Today, more than 750 student-athletes represent the University in 27 intercollegiate programs.

...
As is true at all NCAA Division I universities, athletic skill and anticipated team contribution are factors in admission to the University, and some scholarships and spaces in the incoming first-year class are specifically designated for student?athletes. All student-athletes who are accepted must also demonstrate the potential for academic success at the University, and the review revealed a number of cases in which athletically talented recruits were denied admission.

The review did not uncover cheating on the SAT or ACT or other standardized tests, nor misrepresentation of academic credentials by prospective student?athletes, as was true in the federal cases being prosecuted. The review also found no evidence of private payments made to athletics or admissions personnel for exercising illicit influence.

...

The review did identify a small number of cases from several years ago where the prospect of a gift appears to have motivated the recruitment of student-athletes. The review also found a few instances where recruited student-athletes did not ultimately participate on the team for which they were recruited, for reasons the University was unable to confirm. To protect the privacy of those students, the University will not discuss specific cases.

...

For the truly elite D1 academic schools (Duke, Stanford, Northwestern, Rice, Vanderbilt, Notre Dame, Cal, etc) the players still have to fit a much higher admission criteria than say, Ohio State. Head coaches, ADs, and senior Admissions folk usually agree on a number of "spots" each team gets (including transfers) as long as they meet the lower admission standard, which is usually only a standard deviation or two away from the other kids. Johnny Football with his 1,000 SAT and 2.75 GPA doesn't even get recruited. This is also usually used for kids of big time alumni. The mean & median scores of standard applicants usually covers for the lower criteria so the rankings folk and general snooty alumni never notice.

The G5 and Mid Major programs - YIKES. When I worked at one D1 school I started noticing how poorly the men's basketball players could communicate, so I got curious and looked up admissions info. Of the players who came in as true freshmen, the average SAT was something just above 800. Sheesh.

[Columbuseer]

Teams don't get to the championship games if they don't grind it out during the season. Tark's UNLV teams running and gunning were fun to watch for some, but it is a difference of philosophy. As long as the team is winning, everyone is happy. "Just win baby"

Typically running and gunning does not consistently result in high points per possession. The phrase is often inappropriately applied to teams who score over 85 points per game. Look at average scoring margin for gonzaga, nwmsu, wlu, etc. that is not run and gun. Grinnell is run and gun.

[Columbuseer]

FYI
Elite academic D1 schools have lower admission standards for athletes so it is much easier for athletes to get accepted than for non athletes who want to attend solely to learn. I would not be surprised if there are far fewer full ride (tuition, books, and room and board) scholarships available for brilliant students than for athletes. We may be losing our science and technology leadership, but the world will never catch up to the USA in basketball! ;-)


from uva report in 2019
https://news.virginia.edu/content/un...udent-athletes
...

UVA assigns ultimate authority for decisions regarding student-athlete admissions to the dean of undergraduate admission.

Today, more than 750 student-athletes represent the University in 27 intercollegiate programs.

...
As is true at all NCAA Division I universities, athletic skill and anticipated team contribution are factors in admission to the University, and some scholarships and spaces in the incoming first-year class are specifically designated for student?athletes. All student-athletes who are accepted must also demonstrate the potential for academic success at the University, and the review revealed a number of cases in which athletically talented recruits were denied admission.

The review did not uncover cheating on the SAT or ACT or other standardized tests, nor misrepresentation of academic credentials by prospective student?athletes, as was true in the federal cases being prosecuted. The review also found no evidence of private payments made to athletics or admissions personnel for exercising illicit influence.

...

The review did identify a small number of cases from several years ago where the prospect of a gift appears to have motivated the recruitment of student-athletes. The review also found a few instances where recruited student-athletes did not ultimately participate on the team for which they were recruited, for reasons the University was unable to confirm. To protect the privacy of those students, the University will not discuss specific cases.

...

[Chuck Norris]

Not to mention UVA was a dumpster fire when he took over.

And they have pretty high academic standards for admission. Not just anybody gets in there

[IUPbigINDIANS]

The team I root for had their only brush with national relevance in 3 plus decades playing similarly to what Virginia does. I wish they had been able to sustain it.

A natty, multiple ACC tournament titles and 6 top 2 ACC regular season finishes in the last 7 seasons? Tony Bennett can overcoach my team any day.

Not to mention UVA was a dumpster fire when he took over.

[Bart]

Many different approaches to win games. Key is to consistently achieve a high points per possession. Gonzaga, nwmsu, and wlu all have very high ppp and demonstrate that winning basketball can actually be fun for players to play. However to win a national championship requires some luck in games and matchups. Some folks think that to win it all in d1 u need 2 or 3 nba level players.

Teams don't get to the championship games if they don't grind it out during the season. Tark's UNLV teams running and gunning were fun to watch for some, but it is a difference of philosophy. As long as the team is winning, everyone is happy. "Just win baby"

[Chuck Norris]

I am not enough of a "junkie" about college basketball like some on this board are to care as much about the "bad decisions and lack of teamwork" or "fundamentals," but the overcoaching kills me. The guy I can't stand is Tony Bennett. When he went back to his hotel the night after they lost to UMBC, I hope he took a good, long look in the mirror. Because the guy staring at him is the exact reason why they were the first #1 seed to lose to a #16 seed. Deservedly so. And if you recall, the previous year, they barely escaped as a #1 seed against Coastal Carolina. I've never thought much about his team's at UVA. Can't stand them mostly. Think they are just atrocious to watch. I don't want to tune in to watch Tony Bennett coach, throw his arms in the air on the sideline every defensive possession, and ask his team to burn 3 more seconds off the shot clock when they have the ball. And he keeps getting great players to go there.

Over the course of 30-35 games in the regular season, that style will win you games in surplus. But it's not what wins in the NCAA Tournament. The fact they won the Tournament two years ago still bugs me. A ton of luck went into that championship. They were legitimately handed 2 victories in games that they had effectively lost. They also had a miraculous win against Purdue in the Elite 8. There were three games along the way they had absolutely no business winning.

In no world was Tony Bennett's team less talented than UMBC. Not even a freaking chance. But, when you want to win games in the 50s/low 60s, you reap what you sow. His approach is to limit possessions, but when your team goes cold in a first round NCAA Tournament game against a team that that couldn't miss, you're bound to lose. You can't play that way in a one and done scenario and expect to achieve success playing that style. I'm fully convinced that had Tony Bennett remained in the locker room that night, and his guys just taken the floor and played "streetball," they would have run UMBC out of the building. But he coached, and coached, and coached, and coached.. And played "his game." And they were on the wrong end of history.

The team I root for had their only brush with national relevance in 3 plus decades playing similarly to what Virginia does. I wish they had been able to sustain it.

A natty, multiple ACC tournament titles and 6 top 2 ACC regular season finishes in the last 7 seasons? Tony Bennett can overcoach my team any day.