G-MAC All-Sports and Conference Business Thread

[tuffeagle]

Just saw that Notre Dame College is closing. For the old-timers, you will remember the angst when NDC and then Urbana left the G-MAC (which was still trying to get off the ground). It was a fragile time for the G-MAC and it’s crazy to think that both schools that left for perceived greener pastures are now gone. Crazy times.

Glad to see Walsh, Ursuline and LEC offering teach-out and transfer options.

Those schools didn't leave for greener pastures. They were sub-par universities to begin with. They were just trying to survive. Same with Ohio Valley University. They tried to move to NAIA. Then just closed in the middle of a school year.

So here is the GMAC schools on the endangered list:
1) Lake Erie - serious questions if they will even be open next year. School in bad financial shape.
2) Ohio Dominican - if the Catholic church pulls out (like they did at Notre Dame College and Wheeling Jesuit), they are done. Rumor is the church will.
3) Tiffin - how this school has survived this long is mystery
4) Malone - A few years ago they had to drop football in the middle of a semester. They are a very poor school. Long term viability is questionable.

The other GMAC should be okay (unless the Catholic Church also pulls out of Ursuline). But if 3 football schools are lost (quite possible), that won't be good for the conference.

[BlueBlood]

Those schools didn't leave for greener pastures.

Well, in the moment they sure thought they found a greener pasture. The MEC's strongest moment was the day they announced the conference. 12 schools - all with football. That coincided with the G-MAC's lowest moment - it was left with Cedarville (no football), Central State (offered very few sports), KWC, TNU (no football) and Ursuline (no men's sports). And those 5 schools were spread from Cleveland to Nashville and Western KY.

Now, the end game - yes, the G-MAC is a green pasture.

[Bballfan]

Conferences are constantly going through churn. The concern with the G-MAC is it is all private schools. Not that that is a bad thing, but quite a few private schools are experiencing significant financial difficulty. I expect to see a lot more contraction of D2 schools in the next few years. Former G-MAC Schools Alderson Braoddus, Ohio Valley, and Urbana are all defunct now. I hope not, but I fear in the next few years 2 - 3 more schools will close due to the enrollment cliff. Things are going to get worse before they get better.

[BlueBlood]

Conferences are constantly going through churn. The concern with the G-MAC is it is all private schools. Not that that is a bad thing, but quite a few private schools are experiencing significant financial difficulty. I expect to see a lot more contraction of D2 schools in the next few years. Former G-MAC Schools Alderson Braoddus, Ohio Valley, and Urbana are all defunct now. I hope not, but I fear in the next few years 2 - 3 more schools will close due to the enrollment cliff. Things are going to get worse before they get better.

Oh - I agree. There are a lot of small private schools which are being kept open mostly by sports. A nice size athletic department has 450 to 650 student athletes. Now, how many schools with 600 to 1200 full time students can you think of? Some of them only have 100 to 200 non-athletes.

I have college-age kids. Most of my kids' friends were very deliberate in wanting to go to a "brand name" school. If they don't get into their preferred in-state school, they would rather pay out of state tuition at a large school in another state or go to a larger private school. Then, there is a large group that is very budget conscious. The smart shoppers are going to get the same degree by going to CC for two years, then the local state school. Those are the two big blocks of kids I have witnessed.

Literally all of the kids we know that go to small private schools are student athletes. Once you see it, you can't unsee it. Urbana and NDC and OVC and countless others are examples of athletics-dependent schools where the discounted enrollment income just isn't enough to keep the doors open. There will most-certainly be others that meet a similar fate.

BTW - I see small private schools like Bellarmine and Queens going D1 as "swinging for the fences". I think they did real analysis on what I roughly outlined above and decided that taking a shot at making a name for themselves and becoming something of a "brand name" (albeit a smaller brand name) is their best shot in the current landscape.

[Bballfan]

BTW - I see small private schools like Bellarmine and Queens going D1 as "swinging for the fences". I think they did real analysis on what I roughly outlined above and decided that taking a shot at making a name for themselves and becoming something of a "brand name" (albeit a smaller brand name) is their best shot in the current landscape.

Absolutely. Bellarmine though is in Kentucky and they don't really have a big D2 presence. You are in Kentucky. You are good at basketball. You have to be D1 because of men's basketball. Pretty much it. Southern Indiana also was paid a lot of money to go D1. Talking about swinging for the fences. Lindenwood going D1 is another example. The school that SHOULD do D1 is Grand Valley. But they enjoy beating up on all the other poor D2 schools in sports. Grand Valley is on par with many MAC schools. And in some sports their athletic teams would be quite competitive in the MAC.

Many of these small schools are relying on athletics to survive. They get a cut from the NCAA (what happens if that dries up) to support athletics programs. Then they give a little money to athletes to get them to come to the school. Athletics are used to boost the enrollment to survive.

[unc4life]

I wonder some times how much the move from NAIA to D2 hurt some of these schools. This now the second school in Ohio that was part of the big migration from NAIA to D2 to close it doors. I'm not sure either school had the faculties or the capital backing to support the move. Schools like Lake Erie and ODU are probably not far behind. If your a D2 school in todays world, you better have something that makes you stand out, and a heck of a fundraising department or its going to be rough sailing.

[Bballfan]

I wonder some times how much the move from NAIA to D2 hurt some of these schools. This now the second school in Ohio that was part of the big migration from NAIA to D2 to close it doors. I'm not sure either school had the faculties or the capital backing to support the move. Schools like Lake Erie and ODU are probably not far behind. If your a D2 school in todays world, you better have something that makes you stand out, and a heck of a fundraising department or its going to be rough sailing.

Absolutely! Malone is in really bad shape too. Plenty of articles out there on the financial problems of a lot of small colleges.

The move from NAIA to D2 was for financial reasons. They wanted the NCAA money that gets kicked back from the NCAA Basketball Tournament. That money in turn is used to support the athletic programs. The athletic programs at a lot of schools are use pure and simple to boost enrollment numbers. You might give a kid a little scholarship money, but split a scholarship 4 ways, get 4 students paying 75% of their way and the college is making out. They are not having sports like STUNT or e-Sports just because. If they can throw a little money at those sports and it brings in 100 more students, that's the goal.

If I was to bet, Malone, Lake Erie, and Ohio Dominican will all be gone within 5 years. Urbana and Notre Dame College are just the beginning.

[BlueBlood]

NAIA schools are closing at a pretty fast rate as well. I really think it has more to do with schools not being able to attract regular students (non-student athletes). I think any small private school that doesn't have superior academics or something unique about it (a unique social or political leaning, strong drama/arts, SOMETHING) is in a bit of a fight for survival right now.

I hate being pessimistic, but I think that's where we are at.

[boatcapt]

Absolutely! Malone is in really bad shape too. Plenty of articles out there on the financial problems of a lot of small colleges.

The move from NAIA to D2 was for financial reasons. They wanted the NCAA money that gets kicked back from the NCAA Basketball Tournament. That money in turn is used to support the athletic programs. The athletic programs at a lot of schools are use pure and simple to boost enrollment numbers. You might give a kid a little scholarship money, but split a scholarship 4 ways, get 4 students paying 75% of their way and the college is making out. They are not having sports like STUNT or e-Sports just because. If they can throw a little money at those sports and it brings in 100 more students, that's the goal.

If I was to bet, Malone, Lake Erie, and Ohio Dominican will all be gone within 5 years. Urbana and Notre Dame College are just the beginning.

Athletics is an enrolment booster no doubt. And these "players" pay tuition...even those that are on some % of scholarship. People thumb their nose at schools with a large percentage of athletes enrolled. But I would ask were the school would be absent the enrolled athletes? Answer is the schools would have long closed so there would be no school to thumb their nose at. Heck, subtract the 500 student athletes from most schools in the GMAC (heck...almost ANY DII conference school) and probably over 50% would be closed already or in serious financial straights.

[tuffeagle]

Athletics is an enrolment booster no doubt. And these "players" pay tuition...even those that are on some % of scholarship. People thumb their nose at schools with a large percentage of athletes enrolled. But I would ask were the school would be absent the enrolled athletes? Answer is the schools would have long closed so there would be no school to thumb their nose at. Heck, subtract the 500 student athletes from most schools in the GMAC (heck...almost ANY DII conference school) and probably over 50% would be closed already or in serious financial straights.

You are 110% correct!

Looking at the GMAC:
HIllsdale - the most prestigious and richest school in the conference. And it is not even close.
Northwood - a lot of Dow chemical money
Findlay - a lot of Marathon oil money
Cedarville - strong support from the church. Attract a certain type of student and they have their niche.

Ashland and Walsh - I think they will be alright but not as sound as the 4 above.

Remaining:
Ohio Dominican - Once the church pulls out. Done.
Ursuline - If the church pulls out like they did with Notre Dame College. Done.
Malone - on life support. Doubtful will survive.
Tiffin - surprised it is still afloat
Lake Erie - would be surprised if it is open next year. Spending $1.5 million on a turf soccer field!?!? What are Lake County commissioners smoking giving a school with severe financial troubles this money. Probably the next domino to fall.

Wesleyan and Thomas More - I can't speak much to these schools. I know if the churches pull funding, things get tough.

[boatcapt]

You are 110% correct!

Looking at the GMAC:
HIllsdale - the most prestigious and richest school in the conference. And it is not even close.
Northwood - a lot of Dow chemical money
Findlay - a lot of Marathon oil money
Cedarville - strong support from the church. Attract a certain type of student and they have their niche.

Ashland and Walsh - I think they will be alright but not as sound as the 4 above.

Remaining:
Ohio Dominican - Once the church pulls out. Done.
Ursuline - If the church pulls out like they did with Notre Dame College. Done.
Malone - on life support. Doubtful will survive.
Tiffin - surprised it is still afloat
Lake Erie - would be surprised if it is open next year. Spending $1.5 million on a turf soccer field!?!? What are Lake County commissioners smoking giving a school with severe financial troubles this money. Probably the next domino to fall.

Wesleyan and Thomas More - I can't speak much to these schools. I know if the churches pull funding, things get tough.

Take the top seven programs from the GMAC and the top seven from the MEC and form a 14 team conference. For the remaining schools, encourage them to form their own conference and form a scheduling alliance with that conference. Also give members of that conference expedited consideration for membership should one of their schools meet conference membership requirements at a later date.

In effect, create a "major league/minor league" situation. Don't know of anything in the NCAA by-laws that forbids it sooooo...

[Scrub]

Take the top seven programs from the GMAC and the top seven from the MEC and form a 14 team conference. For the remaining schools, encourage them to form their own conference and form a scheduling alliance with that conference. Also give members of that conference expedited consideration for membership should one of their schools meet conference membership requirements at a later date.

In effect, create a "major league/minor league" situation. Don't know of anything in the NCAA by-laws that forbids it sooooo...

Being across regions makes that a tough sell perhaps. The NCAA will want roughly the same number of schools in each region (which is why most regions have about 3 conferences in the region). If you make a "super conference" across regional lines, it will muck up regional alignment. Now, that's not the GMAC's or MEC's problem; it's NCAA's. But still: might add a complicating factor.

[boatcapt]

Being across regions makes that a tough sell perhaps. The NCAA will want roughly the same number of schools in each region (which is why most regions have about 3 conferences in the region). If you make a "super conference" across regional lines, it will muck up regional alignment. Now, that's not the GMAC's or MEC's problem; it's NCAA's. But still: might add a complicating factor.

CIAA crosses regions doesn't it? And I would note that the GMAC used to have members in WV which crossed "region lines."

[Scrub]

People thumb their nose at schools with a large percentage of athletes enrolled.

I'm probably one of these people (these "nose-thumbers"). You've heard me say before that the thing I don't like about athletics as an enrollment strategy is that it just feels somewhat exploitative. Granted, no one is holding a gun to these kids heads and forcing them to attend these schools and join these teams, but the end result is that kids with a dream end up paying money they don't have for a change to play ball (and sometimes with a sub-par education as the "reward"). It's the kids' choice for sure, but the school using athletics as an enrollment strategy is willingly cashing checks from these dreamers who would likely be better off somewhere else. And the fact that they knowingly do it (i.e., it's a stated strategy) just feels exploitative to me.

And you're right that the school might not exist without these athletic departments, but dumping all of this money into athletics might have prevented these schools from investing in becoming distinctive in some other fashion. [shrug]

[Scrub]

CIAA crosses regions doesn't it? And I would note that the GMAC used to have members in WV which crossed "region lines."

Not sure to be honest. Maybe a CIAA poster will chime in with some knowledge on that.