All 14 SSHE schools will close in 4 years?

[iupgroundhog]

Re: All 14 SSHE schools will close in 4 years?

I think specialization to the needs of the area immediately surrounding the university is important. But not all 14 schools need to offer a BA in English or a BS in Chemistry. The state should give the schools the freedom to adjust and create programs suited for their region. I'm not sure about everyone else, but a good example of this is Edinboro's new BS in Fermentation Science. They're just south of the Lake Erie grape region and there are dozens of craft breweries and distilleries. There's also no program of its kind anywhere near it. All it takes is some new chemistry courses and some foundations courses such as the history of brewing, business of the alcohol industry, and food science.

Right, I added a line to my previous comment. But that's not the kind of specialization that is being discussed. Absolutely, specialized programs to match local needs should be developed. These types of programs, though, can have a short lifecycle. For instance, how is that fracking technology program at Mansfield working out? On the other hand, IUP hit the jackpot about 40 years ago with Safety Science. I think Cal has a couple specialized programs. But these are not Business schools or STEM education (really) that a school can thrive on. I don't know what the market for that Edinboro program is but a quick google search shows that Cornell has the leading program. There are not many programs of its type in the East. There is one at Canandaiga Community College in the Finger Lakes.

[iupgroundhog]

Re: All 14 SSHE schools will close in 4 years?

I would use a "kitchen sink", all of the above approach.

#1 - Make IUP and West Chester into state-related schools. Not only are they the two largest but they're significantly different types of schools and both have toyed with the state-related idea. WCU pushed for it recently because of their growth. IUP made the decision to be part of the PASSHE rather than go state-related back prior to the formation of PASSHE. History and their graduate school distinguish it from the others. And it's a national university.

#2 - Force Pitt, Penn State and Temple to each absorb a PASSHE institution. I would suggest, due to proximity, Pitt takes CalU. I would suggest Temple takes over Cheyney. Penn State could take one of the I-80 schools, either Lock Haven, Bloom, Clarion or maybe Edinboro.

That leaves 9.

#3 - Close Mansfield and maybe close Clarion or Edinboro.

That leaves 7 or 8.

#4 - Streamline the operations of those schools. Integrate them with Dept. of Labor functions.

As a side benefit under this type of plan, athletics wouldn't be affected that much. They all could still compete in the same league.

[ironmaniup]

Re: All 14 SSHE schools will close in 4 years?

I would use a "kitchen sink", all of the above approach.

#1 - Make IUP and West Chester into state-related schools. Not only are they the two largest but they're significantly different types of schools and both have toyed with the state-related idea. WCU pushed for it recently because of their growth. IUP made the decision to be part of the PASSHE rather than go state-related back prior to the formation of PASSHE. History and their graduate school distinguish it from the others. And it's a national university.

#2 - Force Pitt, Penn State and Temple to each absorb a PASSHE institution. I would suggest, due to proximity, Pitt takes CalU. I would suggest Temple takes over Cheyney. Penn State could take one of the I-80 schools, either Lock Haven, Bloom, Clarion or maybe Edinboro.

That leaves 9.

#3 - Close Mansfield and maybe close Clarion or Edinboro.

That leaves 7 or 8.

#4 - Streamline the operations of those schools. Integrate them with Dept. of Labor functions.

As a side benefit under this type of plan, athletics wouldn't be affected that much. They all could still compete in the same league.

The whole problem with any significant change is, it is almost impossible to predict how enrollment is going to be effected. Any change you make must come with a significant tuition reduction / subsidy to go to one of the PASSHE schools to insure students don't just punt on the state system. Its bad enough all the publicity talk of closing/re - setting gives the system.

How about we add some fiscal guidelines for current branch campuses, and require they be shut down under certain conditions.

[iupgroundhog]

Re: All 14 SSHE schools will close in 4 years?

How about we add some fiscal guidelines for current branch campuses, and require they be shut down under certain conditions.

I agree. Seems branch campuses aren't needed at all and communities aren't built around the branch campuses like with the main campuses. They should be closed as the first order of business.

[boatcapt]

Re: All 14 SSHE schools will close in 4 years?

The whole problem with any significant change is, it is almost impossible to predict how enrollment is going to be effected. Any change you make must come with a significant tuition reduction / subsidy to go to one of the PASSHE schools to insure students don't just punt on the state system. Its bad enough all the publicity talk of closing/re - setting gives the system.

How about we add some fiscal guidelines for current branch campuses, and require they be shut down under certain conditions.

Would this apply to "new" branch campuses created as part of the PASSHE reorganization or only existing ones that are part of the current Penn State, Pitt and Temple systems?

To your first point that any change must come with a significant tuition reduction/subsidy to go to one of the PASSHE schools, the REAL first thing that needs to be done is figure out why PA students opting to attend the more expensive Penn State, Pitt and Temple "systems" as opposed to a PASSHE school? I mean, PASSHE schools have always been much cheaper than the others but PA students in droves have been willing to overlook that. The question is WHY and will the PASSHE tuition ever be small enough for sufficient numbers to enroll? Perhaps PA Community Colleges are siphoning away students that in the past would have started their college careers at a PASSHE school? If that is the problem, how do you fix THAT!!?? Either reduce tuition to Community College levels or force CC's to raise their tuition to PASSHE? Neither option have good optics!

[ironmaniup]

Re: All 14 SSHE schools will close in 4 years?

Would this apply to "new" branch campuses created as part of the PASSHE reorganization or only existing ones that are part of the current Penn State, Pitt and Temple systems?

To your first point that any change must come with a significant tuition reduction/subsidy to go to one of the PASSHE schools, the REAL first thing that needs to be done is figure out why PA students opting to attend the more expensive Penn State, Pitt and Temple "systems" as opposed to a PASSHE school? I mean, PASSHE schools have always been much cheaper than the others but PA students in droves have been willing to overlook that. The question is WHY and will the PASSHE tuition ever be small enough for sufficient numbers to enroll? Perhaps PA Community Colleges are siphoning away students that in the past would have started their college careers at a PASSHE school? If that is the problem, how do you fix THAT!!?? Either reduce tuition to Community College levels or force CC's to raise their tuition to PASSHE? Neither option have good optics!

It would be all I suppose, since I suspect some of the current campuses loose money.

Why do significant numbers of students overlook the higher prices and go to PSU -ALtoona or New Kensington ? They want the Penn State diploma, they usually live very close or commute, many have been turned down by the PSU main campus, and go in the hopes of getting on Main campus in 2 years so they can experience the Big Ten school atmosphere. Mostly there is not much PASSHE schools can do to get these students - some better marketing maybe, but everything expanded in good times, and now in hard times, that percentage taken by the branch campuses is significant. IUP is surrounded by Pitt Greensburg, Pitt Johnstown, PSU Altoona, PSU New Ken, and PSU Dubois. All within 45 minute drives in good weather, 3 hr drives in bad, and are where large numbers of students would come from - many still do but there are fewer students.

[boatcapt]

Re: All 14 SSHE schools will close in 4 years?

It would be all I suppose, since I suspect some of the current campuses loose money.

Why do significant numbers of students overlook the higher prices and go to PSU -ALtoona or New Kensington ? They want the Penn State diploma, they usually live very close or commute, many have been turned down by the PSU main campus, and go in the hopes of getting on Main campus in 2 years so they can experience the Big Ten school atmosphere. Mostly there is not much PASSHE schools can do to get these students - some better marketing maybe, but everything expanded in good times, and now in hard times, that percentage taken by the branch campuses is significant. IUP is surrounded by Pitt Greensburg, Pitt Johnstown, PSU Altoona, PSU New Ken, and PSU Dubois. All within 45 minute drives in good weather, 3 hr drives in bad, and are where large numbers of students would come from - many still do but there are fewer students.

If students have voted that they want a Penn State (or Pitt or Temple) education over one from the state schools and are willing to go to one of the 30 or so satellite campuses of the three that are spread around the state, there is not much that can be done about that. My experience is that teenagers care little about the cost of a thing...they just know that they want it! Mom and dad are the ones that need to step in and say, nope, not going to Penn State right out of the barrel because WE can't afford it. You are going to Right Down the Road CC for a few years and then if you do good there, we'll talk! Sadly...seems like an increasing number of parents are not in the business of telling the apple of their eye no to anything they want! Buuuuttttt...the unfortunate reality is that the PASSHE schools by and large are stuck in the middle...not the cheapest game in town for the truly cash strapped value shoppers and don't have the allure of a Big 10, ACC or Big East school. Tough place to be and not many good options. It may simply be a case of most of the PASSHE schools have outlived their usefulness...There was a time when they made sense but maybe that time has passed.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: All 14 SSHE schools will close in 4 years?

And ... how many parents today are paying for it anyway. Massive loans don't mean a thing to 17-year-olds. My favorite is when kids go to a $60k a year school for a teaching degree.

Doesn't PSU pretty much guarantee transfer to Creepy Valley after 2 years so long as you have a certain GPA?

State schools have a bad stigma. Especially to that age group.

[ironmaniup]

Re: All 14 SSHE schools will close in 4 years?

If students have voted that they want a Penn State (or Pitt or Temple) education over one from the state schools and are willing to go to one of the 30 or so satellite campuses of the three that are spread around the state, there is not much that can be done about that. My experience is that teenagers care little about the cost of a thing...they just know that they want it! Mom and dad are the ones that need to step in and say, nope, not going to Penn State right out of the barrel because WE can't afford it. You are going to Right Down the Road CC for a few years and then if you do good there, we'll talk! Sadly...seems like an increasing number of parents are not in the business of telling the apple of their eye no to anything they want! Buuuuttttt...the unfortunate reality is that the PASSHE schools by and large are stuck in the middle...not the cheapest game in town for the truly cash strapped value shoppers and don't have the allure of a Big 10, ACC or Big East school. Tough place to be and not many good options. It may simply be a case of most of the PASSHE schools have outlived their usefulness...There was a time when they made sense but maybe that time has passed.

Well there are still 112,000 students, so despite the expansion of the state related branch campuses, this is still a significant group of students. The real problem is that there are too many faculty for those students, in particular at schools that have been experiencing the more rapid declines. Massive, ruthless faculty cuts could fix the problem in the short term, mid term the obvious problem is poor management, both at certain universities, and in Harrisburg, as well as the state spending rules that don't work for universities.

Long term, it may be a structural problem. Better efficiency, and better management could turn around the enrollment issues not related to demographics, but maybe not. maybe the state related schools advantages are too much to over come long term. If that's true, the state system will eventually become community colleges, maybe PA will follow the trend of community colleges offering a few 4 year degrees. But that transition will either be very slow or very brutal to the staff and community of the PASSHE schools.

[boatcapt]

Re: All 14 SSHE schools will close in 4 years?

And ... how many parents today are paying for it anyway. Massive loans don't mean a thing to 17-year-olds. My favorite is when kids go to a $60k a year school for a teaching degree.

Doesn't PSU pretty much guarantee transfer to Creepy Valley after 2 years so long as you have a certain GPA?

State schools have a bad stigma. Especially to that age group.

Parent's almost always have to co-sign on the student loan so ultimately, they pay if the student can't. Yep...17 year olds have no concept of "money" particularly when it comes to a loan. To them it is Monopoly money...that is until they are 6 months behind in their payments!!

[boatcapt]

Re: All 14 SSHE schools will close in 4 years?

Well there are still 112,000 students, so despite the expansion of the state related branch campuses, this is still a significant group of students. The real problem is that there are too many faculty for those students, in particular at schools that have been experiencing the more rapid declines. Massive, ruthless faculty cuts could fix the problem in the short term, mid term the obvious problem is poor management, both at certain universities, and in Harrisburg, as well as the state spending rules that don't work for universities.

Long term, it may be a structural problem. Better efficiency, and better management could turn around the enrollment issues not related to demographics, but maybe not. maybe the state related schools advantages are too much to over come long term. If that's true, the state system will eventually become community colleges, maybe PA will follow the trend of community colleges offering a few 4 year degrees. But that transition will either be very slow or very brutal to the staff and community of the PASSHE schools.

I think there is a place for some of the high performing state schools but really, only four or five. Once they come to this realization, the closures/mergers need to happen quickly or the state will just be throwing good money after bad. Like ripping off a Band-Aid...best to get it over with in one quick yank as opposed to peeling it off slowly. Move quickly...concentrate the budget $'s into the four/five remaining state schools...give tuition discounts to students displaced by the closures. Move forward and don't look back!

[iupgroundhog]

Re: All 14 SSHE schools will close in 4 years?

I think there are real economic arguments against closing down/eliminating schools, outside of the worst cases e.g. Mansfield, Cheyney, or maybe 1 or 2 others. When you take these universities out of the local economy it's going to create an economic vacuum, not only in employment but also with the ability to retain and attract industry. In most of these cases you run the risk of creating an economic wasteland that will create a new need for economic inflows from the state in these areas for the foreseeable future. The state would be shooting itself in the foot. Closing a bunch of them down altogether will not make Pennsylvania a better state. At a minimum, institutions need to be re-purposed.

[boatcapt]

Re: All 14 SSHE schools will close in 4 years?

I think there are real economic arguments against closing down/eliminating schools, outside of the worst cases e.g. Mansfield, Cheyney, or maybe 1 or 2 others. When you take these universities out of the local economy it's going to create an economic vacuum, not only in employment but also with the ability to retain and attract industry. In most of these cases you run the risk of creating an economic wasteland that will create a new need for economic inflows from the state in these areas for the foreseeable future. The state would be shooting itself in the foot. Closing a bunch of them down altogether will not make Pennsylvania a better state. At a minimum, institutions need to be re-purposed.

So you're saying that a number of the schools are little more than make-work projects for professors, administrators and support staff at the university and local businesses who feed on the dollars the school provides? I hope that isn't the case!

[iupgroundhog]

Re: All 14 SSHE schools will close in 4 years?

No, that's not what I was saying.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: All 14 SSHE schools will close in 4 years?

So you're saying that a number of the schools are little more than make-work projects for professors, administrators and support staff at the university and local businesses who feed on the dollars the school provides? I hope that isn't the case!

Well, ... since you mentioned it. There may be some truth in that statement -- more so than most would care to admit.