Will Gannon, Mercyhurst, Seton Hill budgets survive Covid-19?

[iupgroundhog]

Agree, thank you Gov (hairless) Wolf

I'm not in PA so maybe I don't see it but what is it that Tom Wolf has done to warrant all the criticism?

[iupgroundhog]

The effects of Liberalism. There's never enough money for them. Always want to raise taxes, or in this case raise the cost of schools, because we just had to build all of these schools with all of the amenities, suites instead of dorms, chick-fil-a on campus, etc, etc, and now the chickens have come home to roost. These schools shouldn't cost any more than at the most $15,000. They are state schools. The cost of school at the Univ. of Virginia is like $27,000-$28,000 overall. Millersville is $25,000. Excuse me, NO PASSHE state school will ever be mentioned in the same breathe in terms of quality of education compared to schools like that. So, Why the big cost? I often read on here how people blame the legislature in H-Burg for lack of funding. Well, guess what, if you get less, you don't build more amenities. And, how about paying professors $80-$90000 to teach 12 hours a week. And then people wonder why they can't get the classes they want in the semester they want half the time. How about that salary for 36 hours a week and increased opportunities for students. So, people have figured out , it's cheaper to spend two years living at home going to community college. Or, just pay online tuition without the frills. So, to whom the bell tolls, it now tolls for the PASSHE. It has not been a very good business model for a long time. Too many sports to finance, etc. With the population leaving the state and going south for lower cost of living, Pennsylvania keeps running off tackle, when there's nothing there.

It would be interesting to trace the roots of the capital spending for the PASSHE and see how much of that is truly instigated by "liberalism" (I assume you mean liberals).

Fiscally, PASSHE is in the state it's in (pre-corona) due to cuts by conservatives.

The other thing I'm puzzled by in this thread is why the University of Virginia, founded by Thomas Jefferson in 1818, is being compared on any level to the PASSHE, a group of ragtag former teacher's colleges in Pennsylvania established in 1982.

[IUPNation]

It would be interesting to trace the roots of the capital spending for the PASSHE and see how much of that is truly instigated by "liberalism" (I assume you mean liberals).

Fiscally, PASSHE is in the state it's in (pre-corona) due to cuts by conservatives.

The other thing I'm puzzled by in this thread is why the University of Virginia, founded by Thomas Jefferson in 1818, is being compared on any level to the PASSHE, a group of ragtag former teacher's colleges in Pennsylvania established in 1982.

Yep. The state system has been starved by the GOP in Harrisburg for years. The GOP controlled legislature is the worst governing body in America. As long as we have scum like Daryl Metcalfe lording over us and controlling what get done...this state will always be stuck in a rut.

[Dirty Harry]

It would be interesting to trace the roots of the capital spending for the PASSHE and see how much of that is truly instigated by "liberalism" (I assume you mean liberals).

Fiscally, PASSHE is in the state it's in (pre-corona) due to cuts by conservatives.

The other thing I'm puzzled by in this thread is why the University of Virginia, founded by Thomas Jefferson in 1818, is being compared on any level to the PASSHE, a group of ragtag former teacher's colleges in Pennsylvania established in 1982.

The Uva comparison was strictly one of cost and academic reputation. PASSHE is overpriced. PASSHE was in trouble at many schools before Covid, attendance issues, debt, etc. If the state is cutting back on funding, you can't add. These schools have just added and priced themselves out of the market. Anybody could see this coming over 10 years ago, but, they kept building and lifting tuition and other costs. For example, rock climbing walls in the recreation centers, etc. The leadership can't pass basic economic law of supply and demand. Somebody better do the offset costs of dropping overall cost by $10,000, cutting personnel, and having the dorms filled at that price. Less faculty teaching 36 hours instead of 12 will help do the trick and enhance the amount of class opportunities for students. Let's see if APSCUF is really interested in developing and increasing student opportunities. That's usually the talk during negotiations. That has nothing to do with conservatives. Covid is just going to fast track the future.

[IUPNation]

The Uva comparison was strictly one of cost and academic reputation. PASSHE is overpriced. PASSHE was in trouble at many schools before Covid, attendance issues, debt, etc. If the state is cutting back on funding, you can't add. These schools have just added and priced themselves out of the market. Anybody could see this coming over 10 years ago, but, they kept building and lifting tuition and other costs. For example, rock climbing walls in the recreation centers, etc. The leadership can't pass basic economic law of supply and demand. Somebody better do the offset costs of dropping overall cost by $10,000, cutting personnel, and having the dorms filled at that price. Less faculty teaching 36 hours instead of 12 will help do the trick and enhance the amount of class opportunities for students. Let's see if APSCUF is really interested in developing and increasing student opportunities. That's usually the talk during negotiations. That has nothing to do with conservatives. Covid is just going to fast track the future.

[Fightingscot82]

The Uva comparison was strictly one of cost and academic reputation. PASSHE is overpriced. PASSHE was in trouble at many schools before Covid, attendance issues, debt, etc. If the state is cutting back on funding, you can't add. These schools have just added and priced themselves out of the market. Anybody could see this coming over 10 years ago, but, they kept building and lifting tuition and other costs. For example, rock climbing walls in the recreation centers, etc. The leadership can't pass basic economic law of supply and demand. Somebody better do the offset costs of dropping overall cost by $10,000, cutting personnel, and having the dorms filled at that price. Less faculty teaching 36 hours instead of 12 will help do the trick and enhance the amount of class opportunities for students. Let's see if APSCUF is really interested in developing and increasing student opportunities. That's usually the talk during negotiations. That has nothing to do with conservatives. Covid is just going to fast track the future.

10 years ago these schools were bursting at the seams. Very little construction in the last 5 years. Most state funded construction doesn't even start for years after its approved. Allegheny College, a top liberal arts college peaked then and is now down too. Same with regional privates Thiel and Westminster.

A big piece of the cost issue isn't that they priced themselves out, it's that they are priced too close to where the state related campuses cost and where other states' schools and privates were willing to discount. NWPA has lost 25% of its high school students in the last decade but Penn State Behrend and Pitt Bradford have grown. If you can get a Lexus ES for 20% more than a Toyota Avalon a lot of people take that deal. A lot of people will pay 20% more to attend Robert Morris because they believe it to be a better buy than IUP or Clarion.

[Fightingscot82]

I think that's a shoddy comparison because there are a lot of expenses that didn't exist in 1983 that are deemed essential. The real dollar comparison is important. Adjusted for inflation PASSHE gets the same appropriation it received in 2012.

[iupgroundhog]

I think that's a shoddy comparison because there are a lot of expenses that didn't exist in 1983 that are deemed essential. The real dollar comparison is important. Adjusted for inflation PASSHE gets the same appropriation it received in 2012.

FightingScot, what are you saying?

The reality is that under the administration of Democrat Tom Wolf between 2015 to the present the cuts have been restored that were made during the administration of Republican Tom Corbett between 2011-2015. So to take the years 2012 -2020 is out of context and comes under the category of the 3 types lies; lies, damn lies and statistics.

Before that, Rendell did his level best to fund education that his Republican predecessors Ridge and Schweiker (a Bloom grad!) had cut. That's the way it works in Pennsylvania.

Everybody knows this but the numbers below were the first thing I could google regarding the years 1987-2012.

https://www.chronicle.com/interactives/statesupport

East Stroudsburg University of PennsylvaniaEast Stroudsburg, PAMaster's colleges and universities	56.9%	27.5%	-29.4 pts
West Chester University of PennsylvaniaWest Chester, PAMaster's colleges and universities	57.2%	30.1%	-27.1 pts
California University of PennsylvaniaCalifornia, PAMaster's colleges and universities	58.1%	31.6%	-26.5 pts
Edinboro University of PennsylvaniaEdinboro, PAMaster's colleges and universities	60.1%	33.9%	-26.1 pts
Bloomsburg University of PennsylvaniaBloomsburg, PAMaster's colleges and universities	58.1%	32.1%	-26.0 pts
Lock Haven University of PennsylvaniaLock Haven, PAMaster's colleges and universities	61.8%	36.1%	-25.7 pts
Clarion University of PennsylvaniaClarion, PAMaster's colleges and universities	59.2%	34.8%	-24.4 pts
Kutztown University of PennsylvaniaKutztown, PAMaster's colleges and universities	57.9%	34.8%	-23.0 pts
Millersville University of PennsylvaniaMillersville, PAMaster's colleges and universities	56.6%	34.4%	-22.3 pts
Slippery Rock University of PennsylvaniaSlippery Rock, PAMaster's colleges and universities	57.6%	35.8%	-21.8 pts
Shippensburg University of PennsylvaniaShippensburg, PAMaster's colleges and universities	55.1%	35.4%	-19.8 pts
Mansfield University of PennsylvaniaMansfield, PAMaster's colleges and universities	62.0%	44.3%	-17.7 pts
Cheyney University of PennsylvaniaCheyney, PAMaster's colleges and universities	71.0%	54.9%	-16.0 pts

About the Data

[Fightingscot82]

FightingScot, what are you saying?

The reality is that under the administration of Democrat Tom Wolf between 2015 to the present the cuts have been restored that were made during the administration of Republican Tom Corbett between 2011-2015. So to take the years 2012 -2020 is out of context and comes under the category of the 3 types lies; lies, damn lies and statistics.

Before that, Rendell did his level best to fund education that his Republican predecessors Ridge and Schweiker (a Bloom grad!) had cut. That's the way it works in Pennsylvania.

Everybody knows this but the numbers below were the first thing I could google regarding the years 1987-2012.

https://www.chronicle.com/interactives/statesupport

East Stroudsburg University of PennsylvaniaEast Stroudsburg, PAMaster's colleges and universities	56.9%	27.5%	-29.4 pts
West Chester University of PennsylvaniaWest Chester, PAMaster's colleges and universities	57.2%	30.1%	-27.1 pts
California University of PennsylvaniaCalifornia, PAMaster's colleges and universities	58.1%	31.6%	-26.5 pts
Edinboro University of PennsylvaniaEdinboro, PAMaster's colleges and universities	60.1%	33.9%	-26.1 pts
Bloomsburg University of PennsylvaniaBloomsburg, PAMaster's colleges and universities	58.1%	32.1%	-26.0 pts
Lock Haven University of PennsylvaniaLock Haven, PAMaster's colleges and universities	61.8%	36.1%	-25.7 pts
Clarion University of PennsylvaniaClarion, PAMaster's colleges and universities	59.2%	34.8%	-24.4 pts
Kutztown University of PennsylvaniaKutztown, PAMaster's colleges and universities	57.9%	34.8%	-23.0 pts
Millersville University of PennsylvaniaMillersville, PAMaster's colleges and universities	56.6%	34.4%	-22.3 pts
Slippery Rock University of PennsylvaniaSlippery Rock, PAMaster's colleges and universities	57.6%	35.8%	-21.8 pts
Shippensburg University of PennsylvaniaShippensburg, PAMaster's colleges and universities	55.1%	35.4%	-19.8 pts
Mansfield University of PennsylvaniaMansfield, PAMaster's colleges and universities	62.0%	44.3%	-17.7 pts
Cheyney University of PennsylvaniaCheyney, PAMaster's colleges and universities	71.0%	54.9%	-16.0 pts

About the Data

I'm saying % of budget isn't right because they're not spending money on the same things 30 years apart. Health insurance costs are an easy example. So is IT. In 1983 the construction bond debt was also virtually nonexistent because back then the state paid for everything.

[iupgroundhog]

I'm saying % of budget isn't right because they're not spending money on the same things 30 years apart. Health insurance costs are an easy example. So is IT. In 1983 the construction bond debt was also virtually nonexistent because back then the state paid for everything.

Ok, help me to understand this.

1. Are you saying that over time the costs of running the schools have increased and the state appropriation has not kept pace with those increases, but it hasn't really decreased percentage-wise (in real dollars) relative to the state budget?

2. The capital expenditures Dirty Harry is talking about comes out of a different pot in the state budget and isn't really a part of the state appropriation conversation, correct?

3. The state of Pennsylvania is 49th or 50th in terms of funding state universities. Isn't that true?

[WarriorVoice]

I'm not in PA so maybe I don't see it but what is it that Tom Wolf has done to warrant all the criticism?

He's decided that living is more important than not living...AMAZING

[WarriorVoice]

Yep. The state system has been starved by the GOP in Harrisburg for years. The GOP controlled legislature is the worst governing body in America. As long as we have scum like Daryl Metcalfe lording over us and controlling what get done...this state will always be stuck in a rut.

I couldn't agree with you more...I'm calling my health care professional...

[Fightingscot82]

Ok, help me to understand this.

1. Are you saying that over time the costs of running the schools have increased and the state appropriation has not kept pace with those increases, but it hasn't really decreased percentage-wise (in real dollars) relative to the state budget?

2. The capital expenditures Dirty Harry is talking about comes out of a different pot in the state budget and isn't really a part of the state appropriation conversation, correct?

3. The state of Pennsylvania is 49th or 50th in terms of funding state universities. Isn't that true?

Yes to all three. It's absolutely correct to say that the state appropriation has not kept up with expenses. We'll have to disagree that % of budget is a fair metric. I'd love to see the legislature guarantee so many dollars per FTE PA resident student. A multiyear guarantee would be a dream. But don't wait for it. PASSHE doesn't have lobby power like other PA bureaucracies like PLCB, PA Lottery, or Turnpike Commission.

An unintended consequence of the 2000s building boom was an increase in utility and housekeeping costs. Somewhat similarly, everyone added turf football fields during this same era and now must find $600k to replace it a decade later.

The CBAs also prevent agility to decrease staff or curtail raises in line with enrollment (revenue) decreases. I know that's rather neoliberal of me but it's really hurt my alma mater.

[Horror Child]

Urbana was in trouble before Covid-19 so they're more an exception. Haven't heard much to suggest financial issues at Mercyhurst or Seton Hill. Cash liquidity is what will keep schools open. Gannon's Florida campus is keeping it above water.

Edinboro is safe. Their reserves are among the highest in the system. The PASSHE chancellor was quoted this morning as doing anything he can to reject plans to consolidate schools. Remember, if a school closes the state is still on the hook for their debt and the local economy suffers immediately.

So they should stay open and accumulate even more debt?

And if the schools are being kept open to support the local economy, then they are little more than welfare programs.

[Horror Child]

I'd also say that the state media is slowly starting to question Pitt and Penn State operating Cheyney-esque branches. For every success story (Penn State Behrend or Pitt Bradford) there are Penn State Mont Alto or Pitt Titusville.

And for every West Chester, Indiana and Slippery Rock, there are Mansfield or Lock Haven or Cheyney. Hopefully the state media starts to question those as wel.