PASSHE Institutions Merging

[iupgroundhog]

I want to be optimistic, as well. There just isn't any reassuring info available right now. There certainly isn't reassuring info in the article below.. Happy talk, but nothing concrete.

From the Pennsylvania Capital-Star July 20, 2021

But with no final decision from the National Collegiate Athletic Associationstatementtold the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette that the NCAA discussed the request during a panel at a two-day meeting. However, no formal action has been taken on the proposal.

The NCAA Division II membership committee will meet in September, according to a meeting notice.

[Fightingscot82]

The NCAA will want to know how they're going to keep fundraising separate. Students won't be able to just affiliate with another campus easily. ie Play football for 2 years on Campus A and then transfer to Campus B. They'll want the Financial Aid separate. Stuff like that.

And that all falls in line with each campus having its own legally-separate foundation. It might just change where some money is deposited on the local level - in a university account or sent to the foundation.

[complaint_hopeful]

The NCAA will want to know how they're going to keep fundraising separate. Students won't be able to just affiliate with another campus easily. ie Play football for 2 years on Campus A and then transfer to Campus B. They'll want the Financial Aid separate. Stuff like that.

[complaint_hopeful]

The NCAA yawned and said to get back to them when Middle States fully approves. The plan is approved at the PASSHE level and moving forward - the details are still TBD. I think the fact that the PSAC supports the plan given the current details will probably be enough for the NCAA to approve without much exploration.

PSAC Commissioner Steve Murray Releases Statement on PASSHE Member Integration - Cal Times

[Fightingscot82]

Ok, I'm not going to try to follow your logic here. If like you say the NCAA intervened with requests for changes and the BOG ignored them it would change the entire landscape.

The NCAA yawned and said to get back to them when Middle States fully approves. The plan is approved at the PASSHE level and moving forward - the details are still TBD. I think the fact that the PSAC supports the plan given the current details will probably be enough for the NCAA to approve without much exploration.

[Horror Child]

That's usually the case though, isn't it? When there's a roster spot coaches recruit a new student; they don't hold tryouts. Its pretty rare that a currently enrolled student joins a team. I think I've only known of this happening in an unusual circumstance on teams with a limited roster such as a basketball team in need of bench guys when an already depleted roster takes a hit. But usually this is filled by referral - a "practice player", an athlete from another team (the Pat Cleary special), or someone known on campus as a pretty good player maybe through intramurals, club team, or just playing pickup.

If any of us has been on a campus when a team was cut you know what happens. When I was a student at Edinboro, they cut baseball & tennis. A handful of players stuck around because they were close to graduating or had a girlfriend there. One of my fraternity brothers was on the tennis team. He had two years left so he transferred to West Chester.

Hell, when West Chester said they were cancelling spring sports last year, several spring athletes transferred out, which led the school to recounting that decision.

[iupgroundhog]

Honestly, it's a 450 page document, but I think there are massive details missing. It's really a very high level 10000 foot view document. I doubt the NCAA could read that and decipher what the impact would be.

Some of the BOG members during the vote said something like 'Think about the What not the How.' That document just doesn't have a lot of detail on aspects of this.

We're all looking at this logically. A lot of these organizations have beuracracy too.

No, it's not true. It's BS. You take the 450 pages and summarize what the NCAA needs to know and present that. It's all there. Everything the NCAA needs. The reality is they are holding off on the NCAA until more of the plan is crystallized and irreversible.

[Fightingscot82]

The model also assumes that those enrollees based on sports participation could not be replaced by other tuition-paying students. Unfortunately, at these schools, that appears to be the case.

That's usually the case though, isn't it? When there's a roster spot coaches recruit a new student; they don't hold tryouts. Its pretty rare that a currently enrolled student joins a team. I think I've only known of this happening in an unusual circumstance on teams with a limited roster such as a basketball team in need of bench guys when an already depleted roster takes a hit. But usually this is filled by referral - a "practice player", an athlete from another team (the Pat Cleary special), or someone known on campus as a pretty good player maybe through intramurals, club team, or just playing pickup.

If any of us has been on a campus when a team was cut you know what happens. When I was a student at Edinboro, they cut baseball & tennis. A handful of players stuck around because they were close to graduating or had a girlfriend there. One of my fraternity brothers was on the tennis team. He had two years left so he transferred to West Chester.

[iupgroundhog]

Literally EVERY public comment in the Zoom sessions was against this but 1 and the board voted unanimously to approve this.

Had they presented this and the NCAA said - No, please change these 4 things...I doubt that would have changed anything. This was getting full approval from the start.

I think Middle States is their main concern. And then, they'll work through the NCAA stuff because there is a financial benefit. If there was no financial benefit, they would get rid of some sports.

Ok, I'm not going to try to follow your logic here. If like you say the NCAA intervened with requests for changes and the BOG ignored them it would change the entire landscape.

[complaint_hopeful]

Ok, well a law has been put in place by the PA legislature enabling this process. The BOG has approved a plan that covered something like 450 pages. Tell me, do you think there is not enough info to get a ruling from the NCAA?

Honestly, it's a 450 page document, but I think there are massive details missing. It's really a very high level 10000 foot view document. I doubt the NCAA could read that and decipher what the impact would be.

Some of the BOG members during the vote said something like 'Think about the What not the How.' That document just doesn't have a lot of detail on aspects of this.

We're all looking at this logically. A lot of these organizations have beuracracy too.

[complaint_hopeful]

The model also assumes that those enrollees based on sports participation could not be replaced by other tuition-paying students. Unfortunately, at these schools, that appears to be the case.

Yes - As the Triads are generally losing enrollment year over year...that would be the case.

[iupgroundhog]

The NCAA doesn't make preliminary statements. You submit the paperwork and they render a decision at one of their meetings. Now that decision may include things that you need to change to be compliant.

Now the big question is if the paperwork has been submitted.

Ok, well a law has been put in place by the PA legislature enabling this process. The BOG has approved a plan that covered something like 450 pages. Tell me, do you think there is not enough info to get a ruling from the NCAA?

[complaint_hopeful]

Yes. I understand the current situation. I also believe that anything can be negotiated. I do not believe for a second that this could not have been presented to the NCAA stating that we need an answer based on what we have in order to move forward.

Of course, there are details to be worked out for consolidation. However, there is enough structure already in place for the NCAA to communicate yay or nay. I believe that. I believe Greenstein did not try hard enough. Or, that he knows the answer is going to derail his plans.

Literally EVERY public comment in the Zoom sessions was against this but 1 and the board voted unanimously to approve this.

Had they presented this and the NCAA said - No, please change these 4 things...I doubt that would have changed anything. This was getting full approval from the start.

I think Middle States is their main concern. And then, they'll work through the NCAA stuff because there is a financial benefit. If there was no financial benefit, they would get rid of some sports.

[iupgroundhog]

The model assumes that most of the athletes are only attending the school because of the sport. The basic ROI model is net tuition for players on the roster minus operating expenses (including coaches salaries). For PASSHE schools, athletic scholarships are externally funded so they don't affect revenue or expenses.

So for football, if you have 90 players at an average cost of $22k that's about $1.9MM. At Clarion, football expenses are a little north of $800k. So if Clarion cuts football to cut $800k in expenses, it can be assumed they will unintentionally also lose $1.9MM in revenue.

The model also assumes that those enrollees based on sports participation could not be replaced by other tuition-paying students. Unfortunately, at these schools, that appears to be the case.

[Fightingscot82]

I believe their cost/revenue calculation only applies in the short-term (In this case, 2-4 years). What is missed by the argument is that, over time, the mission of the schools is going to change. They are going to move away from the traditional 4-year college model that we have grown up with and morph into something different. Let's call that the intermediate-term and it is likely 5-10 years. In the intermediate-term, the cost savings being discussed gets overridden by more global changes to the schools. Yes, losing enrollment by dropping sports might be a relevant consideration now but it won't be very soon.

I'd argue that PASSHE schools aren't operating as a 4-year college model. Students don't attend that way anymore and the schools for decades have been offering two-year, certificate, and grad programs. We tend to think of them that way - especially if we're in our 50s or older.

Average time to complete a bachelor's degree isn't a standard metric nor is it talked about. I think if it were, people would see the connection between "graduation rates" and the family income of the students enrolled.