PASSHE Institutions Merging

[complaint_hopeful]

As the saying goes, if you find yourself at the bottom of a deep hole, quit digging. Seems like the PASSHE answer is to come up with a more efficient shovel so schools can dig faster!!

The triads are basically 2 schools failing fairly badly financially merging with a school breaking even to slightly in financial trouble. With the management and employees of the 3 schools (along with consultants( creating a new entity that they feel will be successful.

There's definitely red flags.

[boatcapt]

How do you pay off the debt of keeping them open?

As the saying goes, if you find yourself at the bottom of a deep hole, quit digging. Seems like the PASSHE answer is to come up with a more efficient shovel so schools can dig faster!!

[boatcapt]

The schools do the projects, but apparently PASSHE is on the hook for it. So shut down a campus, and PASSHE would somehow have to pay it off.

If the school is running at a defacite, isn't the PASSHE paying for it now??

[boatcapt]

Yeah...it may be a lose lose. They're hoping the Integrations do it. I don't know.

If PASSHE were funded even at an average state level, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Or if the PASSHE had four fewer schools, you wouldn't be having this discussion.

[complaint_hopeful]

How do you pay off the debt of keeping them open?

Yeah...it may be a lose lose. They're hoping the Integrations do it. I don't know.

If PASSHE were funded even at an average state level, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[complaint_hopeful]

I'm not too well-versed on the debt. Who holds the schools' debt? And is it debt for the schools themselves or to PASSHE or the state of Pennsylvania?

The schools do the projects, but apparently PASSHE is on the hook for it. So shut down a campus, and PASSHE would somehow have to pay it off.

[Horror Child]

How do you pay off the debt of closing a campus? Some of these schools owe $70+ million. The Chancellor has said numerous times that closure isn't an option.

How do you pay off the debt of keeping them open?

[iupgroundhog]

How do you pay off the debt of closing a campus? Some of these schools owe $70+ million. The Chancellor has said numerous times that closure isn't an option.

I'm not too well-versed on the debt. Who holds the schools' debt? And is it debt for the schools themselves or to PASSHE or the state of Pennsylvania?

[complaint_hopeful]

You are so correct. I repeat again that what is needed is the process that has been used to close and realign overcapacity in military bases. The military uses an independent commission to figure out what to do and then needs Congressional action to NOT implement it. Each time it has been used, the plans from the commission have been implemented. To me, doing this is simple and easily adapted to eliminate overcapacity in the state system of higher education and ignore (but hear) the lobbying efforts you describe.

How do you pay off the debt of closing a campus? Some of these schools owe $70+ million. The Chancellor has said numerous times that closure isn't an option.

[boatcapt]

You are so correct. I repeat again that what is needed is the process that has been used to close and realign overcapacity in military bases. The military uses an independent commission to figure out what to do and then needs Congressional action to NOT implement it. Each time it has been used, the plans from the commission have been implemented. To me, doing this is simple and easily adapted to eliminate overcapacity in the state system of higher education and ignore (but hear) the lobbying efforts you describe.

You are right. Base closures were not fun but very necessary. The local communities around the bases that were selected to close pitched a royal b*tch with predictions that the communites would simply dry up and blow away. But that really didn't happen. They figured out a way to survive without the base and many are actually doing better than when the base was there.

[BADinPA]

The only real way of "fixing" that over supply problem is to cut capacity but which capacity and were? Seems like every school, faculty, alumni and local community have become very adept at lobying for why THEY should not face the axe. Meanwhile the PASSHE is circling the drain at a lower and lower level. Eventually the system as a whole will become unsustainable and it will crash. May not be this year or next, but make no mistake, that is the trajectory they are on.

You are so correct. I repeat again that what is needed is the process that has been used to close and realign overcapacity in military bases. The military uses an independent commission to figure out what to do and then needs Congressional action to NOT implement it. Each time it has been used, the plans from the commission have been implemented. To me, doing this is simple and easily adapted to eliminate overcapacity in the state system of higher education and ignore (but hear) the lobbying efforts you describe.

[Horror Child]

Most students are still 18-25 and that group of students reject the idea of online only. They'll drive 40 minutes each way to attend in person but they won't sit at home. If you have any K-12 kids ask them if they prefer online to in person. I bet its 10-to-1 preferring in person. Most of this is because people are taught to teach using in person methods. There aren't necessarily best practices for online learning. The online demographic is working adults. For-profits using online took advantage of lower income working adults and especially military. Once the government caught on they're in decline. But yes, some brick and mortar schools invested heavily in online (or purchased online enterprises like Purdue buying Kaplan). By and large most of the fully online enrollment is working adults and most of it is second bachelors and graduate study.

PA's problem is that there's not a huge market for working adults looking for additional education. If PASSHE can figure that out they should be able to make up some decent ground from declining high school applicants.

If your assessment is accurate, the integrations are doomed to fail. A key tenet of the western triad is online while the northeastern one is focused on workforce development and non-degree programs.

[Fightingscot82]

You are correct about there being no magic bullet solution. Bottom line is that there is excess capacity to the current and future population of the state. The only real way of "fixing" that over supply problem is to cut capacity but which capacity and were? Seems like every school, faculty, alumni and local community have become very adept at lobying for why THEY should not face the axe. Meanwhile the PASSHE is circling the drain at a lower and lower level. Eventually the system as a whole will become unsustainable and it will crash. May not be this year or next, but make no mistake, that is the trajectory they are on.

On-line education by colleges has fundimentally changed over the last few years and Covid certainly accelerated this. Gone are the days when there were only a couple of options. Seems like every school in every state has an on-line "campus" and unlike in the past, most charge a standard tuition no matter if you are in state or out. In this crowded market, I doubt if a PASSHE on-line college is the answer to increasing enrolement.

Correct. Just yesterday the Missouri system launched their online arm. But PASSHE can undercut most others on price. Base tuition for undergraduate is still under $10,000 for two semesters. I believe full time grad studies comes in around $7,500 a semester. Nobody in PA can touch that and neither can the big online schools. There's a reason Penn States online programs aren't more popular - Penn State tuition isn't the same value without the research or social experiences.

For adult learners a big selling point is corporate partnerships offering discounts. Unsure why, but my company offers discounts with for-profit Strayer and the University of Florida. Even with the 20% discount it's still cheaper to attend PASSHE.

[boatcapt]

I would avoid the mindset that there is a solution for the woes of the PASSHE. Something that will make it all better.

It's a system in decline due to uncontrollable factors, mainly demographics but also some other economic factors.

The best that can be done is to manage the decline. That's what they are trying to do now.

Have a nice day!

You are correct about there being no magic bullet solution. Bottom line is that there is excess capacity to the current and future population of the state. The only real way of "fixing" that over supply problem is to cut capacity but which capacity and were? Seems like every school, faculty, alumni and local community have become very adept at lobying for why THEY should not face the axe. Meanwhile the PASSHE is circling the drain at a lower and lower level. Eventually the system as a whole will become unsustainable and it will crash. May not be this year or next, but make no mistake, that is the trajectory they are on.

On-line education by colleges has fundimentally changed over the last few years and Covid certainly accelerated this. Gone are the days when there were only a couple of options. Seems like every school in every state has an on-line "campus" and unlike in the past, most charge a standard tuition no matter if you are in state or out. In this crowded market, I doubt if a PASSHE on-line college is the answer to increasing enrolement.

[Fightingscot82]

Well online was something that could mitigate the demographic decline in PA, but most schools just kinda did it. They didn't do it great. Doing it great requires making some fundamental changes.

And there was a market for it. SNHU wasn't a household name. A lot of the big providers weren't. That could have been us!

Now, it might just be too late.

Most students are still 18-25 and that group of students reject the idea of online only. They'll drive 40 minutes each way to attend in person but they won't sit at home. If you have any K-12 kids ask them if they prefer online to in person. I bet its 10-to-1 preferring in person. Most of this is because people are taught to teach using in person methods. There aren't necessarily best practices for online learning. The online demographic is working adults. For-profits using online took advantage of lower income working adults and especially military. Once the government caught on they're in decline. But yes, some brick and mortar schools invested heavily in online (or purchased online enterprises like Purdue buying Kaplan). By and large most of the fully online enrollment is working adults and most of it is second bachelors and graduate study.

PA's problem is that there's not a huge market for working adults looking for additional education. If PASSHE can figure that out they should be able to make up some decent ground from declining high school applicants.