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  • ironmaniup
    replied
    Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View Post

    Since a plan hasn't yet been developed, I think its premature to declare it as a negative. We don't know what the "integration" will look like and its entirely possible that they each look different. It's also possible that the public will reject the model. Tuition paying students tend to vote with their feet. Will students in that region instead choose an independent PASSHE school or one of the Penn State outlet stores? I imagine Lou Barletta will help pay for students to attend PSU Hazleton as long as they're white.
    The BIg unknown in all of this is knowing what the students will do. Schools are less attractive if there is no stability, and if the morale of the place is bad. There should be a bump next fall as Covid clears, and the students that put off college return. But where will they go ? to schools where they will be on-line half the time ? I doubt it, that's what they wanted to avoid in the first place. The state system used the small classes taught by faculty who give you personal attention as a recruiting pitch, that doesn't work if half of your profs are 100 miles away, on Zoom. I think some of the schools are headed for community college status. There is no plan to save the 14 institutions, its just a 3 years and see where we are kind of thing.

    Leave a comment:


  • Fightingscot82
    replied
    Originally posted by iupgroundhog View Post

    Greenstein is being careful to present a limited, short-term plan although the long term results are existential for some of the schools and the system itself.

    I think he needs to present a realistic medium-term plan before this all blows up in our collective faces, we go back to square one and Greenstein decides to bolt.

    Face it, the Bloomfield Haven plan results in a weakened LHU and a virtually non-existent Mansfield. That's the inevitability of his plan. He needs to put that out there if Mansfield and LH are destined to become branches of Bloomsburg. People need to see where it's going. Clearly, there are too many special interests with 14 university communities, all with a variety of constituencies.

    As for the western PA schools, I think he needs to present it as a western PA plan. The inevitability there is you end up with 2 or 3 schools with satellite branches. He needs to present that plan (which is more drastic) rather than beat around the bush as he is now.

    These 2 ultimate plans leave the satellite schools in place, albeit reduced, and allow them to die their slow deaths in whatever shape that takes.

    I understand Greenstein is a take-charge guy with unparalleled experience but all the competing interests threaten to derail any needed progress.
    Since a plan hasn't yet been developed, I think its premature to declare it as a negative. We don't know what the "integration" will look like and its entirely possible that they each look different. It's also possible that the public will reject the model. Tuition paying students tend to vote with their feet. Will students in that region instead choose an independent PASSHE school or one of the Penn State outlet stores? I imagine Lou Barletta will help pay for students to attend PSU Hazleton as long as they're white.

    Leave a comment:


  • iupgroundhog
    replied
    Originally posted by complaint_hopeful View Post

    At what point does all this uncertainty with PASSHE and news of schools being insolvent and financially unstable poison the well and make students go to other schools?

    To a large extent, the major news stations don't seem to be picking this up. It seems mainly the small local papers and Universities run the stories on this stuff. The Faculty Union is launching a whole campaign about how retrenchment will mean lower quality for students. And they may be right. But, is all this bad press going to just mean less students?

    APSCUF discusses retrenchment at town hall -
    APSCUF President explains faculty layoffs happening at PASSHE universities
    http://www.theonlinerocket.com/news/...-at-town-hall/

    And of course students and faculty will not want to see faculty lose their jobs. But, the finances are so bad that schools may go out of business. This isn't a situation where doing nothing makes it better. Heck, even making these changes might not fix it. It might be too late. We may just need less schools.
    Greenstein is being careful to present a limited, short-term plan although the long term results are existential for some of the schools and the system itself.

    I think he needs to present a realistic medium-term plan before this all blows up in our collective faces, we go back to square one and Greenstein decides to bolt.

    Face it, the Bloomfield Haven plan results in a weakened LHU and a virtually non-existent Mansfield. That's the inevitability of his plan. He needs to put that out there if Mansfield and LH are destined to become branches of Bloomsburg. People need to see where it's going. Clearly, there are too many special interests with 14 university communities, all with a variety of constituencies.

    As for the western PA schools, I think he needs to present it as a western PA plan. The inevitability there is you end up with 2 or 3 schools with satellite branches. He needs to present that plan (which is more drastic) rather than beat around the bush as he is now.

    These 2 ultimate plans leave the satellite schools in place, albeit reduced, and allow them to die their slow deaths in whatever shape that takes.

    I understand Greenstein is a take-charge guy with unparalleled experience but all the competing interests threaten to derail any needed progress.

    Leave a comment:


  • Fightingscot82
    replied
    Originally posted by complaint_hopeful View Post

    I think if you add to that Can't meet their financial obligations without dipping into reserves. I think that's their definition of insolvent. ie Can't atleast break even. Schools are depleting reserves which will eventually run out. Then, they will be unable to meet their financial obligations.
    My understanding is that financially troubled or whatever the middle tier (at one point called Yellow by PASSHE) is currently operating at a loss mitigated by dipping into reserves; "insolvent" might mean right now there isn't a path that won't exhaust their reserves or their reserves are already exhausted. This probably also takes into consideration an assumption that state appropriation is going to take a massive hit for the 20-21 fiscal year.

    My assumption for Edinboro is between the spring refund and online fall semester, the housing debt is killing their reserves.

    Leave a comment:


  • complaint_hopeful
    replied
    Originally posted by ironmaniup View Post

    I suppose there would be significant legal and legislative challenges to closing a school like Mansfield. I'm not sure you could do it without the legislator's approval. Then there is the costs of maintaining the grounds, with 0 income - it wouldn't be like an old shuttered factory. Its a good question, and the real answer is probably that no one has ever really thought about what closing a university would look like. No one wants the image of old boarded up university buildings - there has to be something to replace it,
    Just spitballing here, but I wonder if the better partnership isn't like an SNHU and one of these schools. Take one with a nice campus. Then do a whole new model in that.

    Instead you're merging schools like Cal U (unstable) with Clarion (Insolvent) and Edinboro (Insolvent). So the best school in that partnership is unstable. I doubt that some great innovation comes out of that. You may be able to reduce Staff/Faculty and have maybe 1 English program for 3 schools, etc to save that way. But, you'll almost certainly lose students.

    Why not sale say a Cal U who has a nice campus to an SNHU (assuming they want a physical campus.) Continue to reduce buildings on campus Demo'ing the old buildings. Reduce business functions that SNHU provides. Keep the ones that need an online presence. You would use SNHU's processes.

    Just an example, but I think this seems to make more sense.

    Leave a comment:


  • complaint_hopeful
    replied
    Originally posted by IUPbigINDIANS View Post
    Still not convinced Uncle Sam is going to flush any of these schools down the toilet.

    Although it reminds me of owning a pond with way too many Bass in it and not enough food for them. None of them grow big. They all become stagnant and stunted. The only way to fix it is to start eliminating the smaller Bass.

    The PASSHE is a pond with way too many GD fish in it.
    Right! And all of the state subsidy over the years encourage inefficiency. Schools likely grew above where they should have. And they were scaled to the prosperous times, which is why they want to reduce ratios to 2010 numbers.

    But, if you look at these schools...I think you'll see a lot of inefficiency. They can cut costs all they want, but many of the schools lack even fundamental documented business processes. If you evaluated them on a business process maturity model, they'd be very low. This translates to a lesser product. ie Is it easy for a potential student to become a student? I'm fairly sure if you look at some that their processes hold them back.

    And that same lack of process needs addressed in this shared services model that they're going to. To become a service provider, that stuff needs defined all the more.

    Leave a comment:


  • complaint_hopeful
    replied
    Originally posted by iupgroundhog View Post

    I don't think Greenstein is winning any PR battles right now.
    At what point does all this uncertainty with PASSHE and news of schools being insolvent and financially unstable poison the well and make students go to other schools?

    To a large extent, the major news stations don't seem to be picking this up. It seems mainly the small local papers and Universities run the stories on this stuff. The Faculty Union is launching a whole campaign about how retrenchment will mean lower quality for students. And they may be right. But, is all this bad press going to just mean less students?

    APSCUF discusses retrenchment at town hall -
    APSCUF President explains faculty layoffs happening at PASSHE universities
    http://www.theonlinerocket.com/news/...-at-town-hall/

    And of course students and faculty will not want to see faculty lose their jobs. But, the finances are so bad that schools may go out of business. This isn't a situation where doing nothing makes it better. Heck, even making these changes might not fix it. It might be too late. We may just need less schools.

    Leave a comment:


  • complaint_hopeful
    replied
    Originally posted by iupgroundhog View Post

    I find that article to be confusing. It's the first I've heard of the schools being referred to as "insolvent." Are they insolvent? That means they can't meet their general financial obligations or debt obligations.
    I think if you add to that Can't meet their financial obligations without dipping into reserves. I think that's their definition of insolvent. ie Can't atleast break even. Schools are depleting reserves which will eventually run out. Then, they will be unable to meet their financial obligations.

    Leave a comment:


  • Fightingscot82
    replied
    Originally posted by Bart View Post

    The system is on the verge of collapse, so the answer is to bailout the schools that are failing. It seems they should be investing in the winning schools, and not propping up those that are failing. Why would it cost $200 million to close or mothball a school?
    Right now, the only "winning schools" are Slippery Rock and West Chester.

    Leave a comment:


  • ironmaniup
    replied
    Originally posted by Bart View Post

    The system is on the verge of collapse, so the answer is to bailout the schools that are failing. It seems they should be investing in the winning schools, and not propping up those that are failing. Why would it cost $200 million to close or mothball a school?
    I suppose there would be significant legal and legislative challenges to closing a school like Mansfield. I'm not sure you could do it without the legislator's approval. Then there is the costs of maintaining the grounds, with 0 income - it wouldn't be like an old shuttered factory. Its a good question, and the real answer is probably that no one has ever really thought about what closing a university would look like. No one wants the image of old boarded up university buildings - there has to be something to replace it,

    Leave a comment:


  • Bart
    replied
    Originally posted by IUPbigINDIANS View Post
    Still not convinced Uncle Sam is going to flush any of these schools down the toilet.

    Although it reminds me of owning a pond with way too many Bass in it and not enough food for them. None of them grow big. They all become stagnant and stunted. The only way to fix it is to start eliminating the smaller Bass.

    The PASSHE is a pond with way too many GD fish in it.
    The system is on the verge of collapse, so the answer is to bailout the schools that are failing. It seems they should be investing in the winning schools, and not propping up those that are failing. Why would it cost $200 million to close or mothball a school?

    Leave a comment:


  • IUPbigINDIANS
    replied
    Still not convinced Uncle Sam is going to flush any of these schools down the toilet.

    Although it reminds me of owning a pond with way too many Bass in it and not enough food for them. None of them grow big. They all become stagnant and stunted. The only way to fix it is to start eliminating the smaller Bass.

    The PASSHE is a pond with way too many GD fish in it.

    Leave a comment:


  • iupgroundhog
    replied
    I don't think Greenstein is winning any PR battles right now.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bart
    replied
    Originally posted by iupgroundhog View Post

    I find that article to be confusing. It's the first I've heard of the schools being referred to as "insolvent." Are they insolvent? That means they can't meet their general financial obligations or debt obligations.
    https://www.indianagazette.com/news/...716f19b0b.html

    Leave a comment:


  • iupgroundhog
    replied
    Originally posted by Bart View Post
    "If the pattern does not change, PASSHE could see Lock Haven and Shippensburg Universities become insolvent and Bloomsburg, East Stroudsburg and Millersville Universities become financially unstable."

    http://www.theonlinerocket.com/news/...-goes-virtual/
    I find that article to be confusing. It's the first I've heard of the schools being referred to as "insolvent." Are they insolvent? That means they can't meet their general financial obligations or debt obligations.

    Leave a comment:

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