G-MAC / GLIAC Updates

[Brandon]

Re: G-MAC / GLIAC Updates

https://www.capitalonecup.com/

You started with a dumb statement about any team that moved up in the last 20 years should fire their AD. I showed something that countered that. You doubled down.

I added the capital one cup standings. NDSU is #3. They must be doing alright then, using your logic.

Of all the dumb stuff anyone has said on here this is not the one to bust his balls... ;)

I think NDSU is the definite exception. I think we can all agree that THE state school of a particular state might be able to have some success, particularly one that had already been successful for an extended period of time in Division II. NDSU is much different than other schools who are realistically the 4th or 5th school in their state at best.

[laker]

Re: G-MAC / GLIAC Updates

"Almost every sport" is much more than even half. Bottom line is that the move up for NDSU has put them in a much better position. I don't think that their AD should be fired for facilitating that move.

Four NCC Dakota schools grades for moving to D1 to this point.

NDSU A
SDSU A
USD B
UND C

[KleShreen]

Re: G-MAC / GLIAC Updates

https://www.capitalonecup.com/

You started with a dumb statement about any team that moved up in the last 20 years should fire their AD. I showed something that countered that. You doubled down.

I added the capital one cup standings. NDSU is #3. They must be doing alright then, using your logic.

The Capital One Cup gives extra points to certain sports, including football. All 60 of NDSU's points are courtesy of their football team winning the FCS title. The only "Group B" sports which have completed play so far are football and soccer, which account for the top three teams (Clemson - FBS Football, NDSU - FSC Football, Maryland - Soccer).

Finish	        1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10
Group A :	20	12	10	8	6	5	4	3	2	1
Group B :	60	36	30	24	18	15	12	9	6	3

Group A men's sports include cross country, skiing, rifle, water polo, indoor track & field, outdoor track & field, wrestling, fencing, swimming & diving, ice hockey, gymnastics, volleyball, tennis, and golf. Group B men's sports include soccer, football (FCS), football (FBS), basketball, lacrosse, and baseball.

Group A women's sports include field hockey, cross country, skiing, rifle, indoor track & field, outdoor track & field, swimming & diving, ice hockey, fencing, bowling, gymnastics, water polo, tennis, golf, rowing, and beach volleyball. Group B women's sports include soccer, volleyball, basketball, lacrosse, and softball.

They have less teams competing for national titles.

In the last 20 years, not a single school has gone D-II to D-I and started winning more national championships than before.

NDSU is the exception to the rule. They are by far the most successful, and they *still* do not have a more successful athletics program than previously, after 15 years at D-I. For every NDSU, there are a handful of Nebraska-Omaha's, UC Davis', Northern Colorado's, Winston-Salem State's. Every school in the country should strive to have the best balance of athletics success, media recognition for marketability, and profitability. I'll take competing for national championships and getting media recognition via postseason activity in a variety of D-II sports for an entire school year, over a week's worth of media recognition for an FCS title and maybe a March Madness tournament appearance while the rest of your athletic programs struggle to keep their heads above water as they continue to see their white-colored name on the losing end of a yellow-colored name on the ESPN Bottomline time and time again for men's and women's basketball.

[Irishlaker]

Re: G-MAC / GLIAC Updates

https://www.capitalonecup.com/

You started with a dumb statement about any team that moved up in the last 20 years should fire their AD. I showed something that countered that. You doubled down.

I added the capital one cup standings. NDSU is #3. They must be doing alright then, using your logic.

The Capital One Cup is a fabricated marketing program in conjunction with ESPN that only pertains to Division 1. It not only weighs certain sports more heavily, it also awards the points for many of those sports based on POLL results...NOT necessarily how the teams actually finish on the field. NDSU winning the FCS title gave them all of their points...using this as your "evidence" that NDSU is "performing well in D1" vs. the overall health of their program when they were in D2 is actually furthering Kle's point: Football is doing great, but the rest of the program is really NOT nationally relevant.

The All-Sports Trophy that athletic departments actually pay attention to is the NACDA Learfield Director's Cup. This program awards points based on how the teams actually finish (vs. polling), and doesn't give greater weight from one sport to another.
NDSU is currently 65th in those standings. Not shameful by any means, but they were consistently in the Top 10 when they were in D2. Kle's point is still valid: A larger # of NDSU's programs were nationally competitive when they were in D2...now, only one of them is.

[Runnin' Cat]

Re: G-MAC / GLIAC Updates

Of all the dumb stuff anyone has said on here this is not the one to bust his balls... ;)

I think NDSU is the definite exception. I think we can all agree that THE state school of a particular state might be able to have some success, particularly one that had already been successful for an extended period of time in Division II. NDSU is much different than other schools who are realistically the 4th or 5th school in their state at best.

I just like to see Kle backpedal.

I agree. Most schools should not make that move. NDSU has made a great move. I think USD and SDSU made good moves as well.

[Runnin' Cat]

Re: G-MAC / GLIAC Updates

The Capital One Cup is a fabricated marketing program in conjunction with ESPN that only pertains to Division 1. It not only weighs certain sports more heavily, it also awards the points for many of those sports based on POLL results...NOT necessarily how the teams actually finish on the field. NDSU winning the FCS title gave them all of their points...using this as your "evidence" that NDSU is "performing well in D1" vs. the overall health of their program when they were in D2 is actually furthering Kle's point: Football is doing great, but the rest of the program is really NOT nationally relevant.

The All-Sports Trophy that athletic departments actually pay attention to is the NACDA Learfield Director's Cup. This program awards points based on how the teams actually finish (vs. polling), and doesn't give greater weight from one sport to another.
NDSU is currently 65th in those standings. Not shameful by any means, but they were consistently in the Top 10 when they were in D2. Kle's point is still valid: A larger # of NDSU's programs were nationally competitive when they were in D2...now, only one of them is.

That was my point. The Directors Cup uses a criteria as well.

I am sure that the NDSU folks are very happy with their move. It has been a marketing coup, enrollment at NDSU has increased with out-of-state students, and they have maintained solid athletic programs.

Not everyone has a program like GV that maintains a fine program and stays DII.

[BeachinLaker]

Re: G-MAC / GLIAC Updates

As I said in a previous post...For the football schools, Division I should be the Power 5 conferences only and Division II should be everyone else in FBS, FCS, and anyone in D2 that wants to compete at that level. However, that is not the system we have in place today. Today, many of the schools of GVSU's caliber have moved up to the next level while D2 in our area becomes more saturated with small private colleges. GVSU has surpassed all three of the directionals in enrollment and the school continues to expand its footprint. In the not too distant future, we're going to have a main campus that will be almost unrecognizable compared to today and a downtown GR campus that occupies several city blocks with increased building. We have become West Michigan's main university and will continue to add degree programs that set us apart from the rest and produce higher paid alumni that will become donors. With that status, we have much more in common with the programs in FCS than we do Northwood, SVSU, Davenport, Ferris, Tech, LSSU, Purdue-Northwestern, Ashland, etc. As an institution, we're not the GVSU of the past and in the future we'll be more than we are today. I'm not saying that right now is a good time to transition. However, I could see us successfully making that transition in the future unless the NCAA goes to the model I proposed.

[D2Ohio]

Re: G-MAC / GLIAC Updates

Northwood is private.

Correct, that is why I stated they would be the only GLIAC Michigan considered for GMAC.

[oilerftbll]

Re: G-MAC / GLIAC Updates

That is true, but only true for FBS. FCS doesn't have an attendance requirement. Even with FBS though...EMU is a good example of the NCAA not enforcing that rule.

Personally, I would like to see an expansion of the stadium to 15,000 seats. The current capacity is 10,444 and we routinely have 15,000 or more fans in the stadium. But I think we'll see a new arena built before they do another expansion.

Grand Valley no doubt has a strong following, and an excellent facility currently. However, if they were to make the jump to FCS, then not have the success they are used to at the D2 level, would they continue to have that following? I only ask that from an attendance standpoint, which would make a large financial impact depending on how much of a hit that took.

[MrsThortonMelon]

Re: G-MAC / GLIAC Updates

The Capital One Cup gives extra points to certain sports, including football. All 60 of NDSU's points are courtesy of their football team winning the FCS title. The only "Group B" sports which have completed play so far are football and soccer, which account for the top three teams (Clemson - FBS Football, NDSU - FSC Football, Maryland - Soccer).

Finish	        1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10
Group A :	20	12	10	8	6	5	4	3	2	1
Group B :	60	36	30	24	18	15	12	9	6	3

They have less teams competing for national titles.

In the last 20 years, not a single school has gone D-II to D-I and started winning more national championships than before.

NDSU is the exception to the rule. They are by far the most successful, and they *still* do not have a more successful athletics program than previously, after 15 years at D-I. For every NDSU, there are a handful of Nebraska-Omaha's, UC Davis', Northern Colorado's, Winston-Salem State's. Every school in the country should strive to have the best balance of athletics success, media recognition for marketability, and profitability. I'll take competing for national championships and getting media recognition via postseason activity in a variety of D-II sports for an entire school year, over a week's worth of media recognition for an FCS title and maybe a March Madness tournament appearance while the rest of your athletic programs struggle to keep their heads above water as they continue to see their white-colored name on the losing end of a yellow-colored name on the ESPN Bottomline time and time again for men's and women's basketball.

Just for the sake of argument let's say that Ashland & Northwood both jump to the GMAC...would GVSU or Ferris be able to fill an 11 game schedule each year without spending a lot of money to travel or pay teams to come in and play? That's really the only reason I would see GVSU doing anything as far as moving up. I also worry that a few teams would be trimmed to save money in a move like that.

[MrsThortonMelon]

Re: G-MAC / GLIAC Updates

Grand Valley no doubt has a strong following, and an excellent facility currently. However, if they were to make the jump to FCS, then not have the success they are used to at the D2 level, would they continue to have that following? I only ask that from an attendance standpoint, which would make a large financial impact depending on how much of a hit that took.

There are some folks that think that GVSU would get an even larger demographic if they moved up to FCS...the stadium would need a few upgrades but over all most facilities would be ok. The basketball arena is old but they could add the needed seating on the ends if need be.

[BeachinLaker]

Re: G-MAC / GLIAC Updates

There are some folks that think that GVSU would get an even larger demographic if they moved up to FCS...the stadium would need a few upgrades but over all most facilities would be ok. The basketball arena is old but they could add the needed seating on the ends if need be.

That would be my assumption as well. Bigger name in-conference opponents, one FBS opponent per year in football, basketball and other sports competing at the top level. Yeah, we wouldn't be dominating our competition in every sport and winning Director's Cups every year like we do now, but I have seen a football program that had a 40 game win streak and 4 national championships turn into one with a lot more competition and losses and we still average 15-16,000 in the regular season. I think Laker pride is entrenched at this point and people show up to support the program in the good seasons and the bad.

Also, I was perusing the GVSU Master Plan and one of the items on there was a new arena, which would be nice. The current one is incredibly aged even with the new floor and scoreboards.

[Runnin' Cat]

Re: G-MAC / GLIAC Updates

That would be my assumption as well. Bigger name in-conference opponents, one FBS opponent per year in football, basketball and other sports competing at the top level. Yeah, we wouldn't be dominating our competition in every sport and winning Director's Cups every year like we do now, but I have seen a football program that had a 40 game win streak and 4 national championships turn into one with a lot more competition and losses and we still average 15-16,000 in the regular season. I think Laker pride is entrenched at this point and people show up to support the program in the good seasons and the bad.

Also, I was perusing the GVSU Master Plan and one of the items on there was a new arena, which would be nice. The current one is incredibly aged even with the new floor and scoreboards.

When is the last time GV averaged over 15K?

Last year, excluding the playoff game, they averaged 12,396.

2017, averaged 12,510

2016 averaged 14,188 regular season, 12548 with playoffs.

Impressive results, but a drop from the golden years you mentioned.

[champgymusa]

Re: G-MAC / GLIAC Updates

When is the last time GV averaged over 15K?

Last year, excluding the playoff game, they averaged 12,396.

2017, averaged 12,510

2016 averaged 14,188 regular season, 12548 with playoffs.

Impressive results, but a drop from the golden years you mentioned.

This is the GLIAC forum, there is no room for facts or stats here..this is a NO MATH zone. I dont think in the golden years we averaged that many either as I recall...but still Lubbers is a great game venue and a lot of bang for the buck! I dont know if moving up is a good plan or not but at this point there isn't much reason to even pursue it IMHO.

[Irishlaker]

Re: G-MAC / GLIAC Updates

At no point have we averaged 15,000+ in attendance. Has simply never happened, let alone during the "glory/title" years when capacity was roughly 2,000 less than it is today.

Don't get me wrong...we do very well, but we have never had a season where we averaged 15,000+...let alone a run of them...