Why are some MIAA schools fighting so hard to keep silo scheduling?

[backintheday]

I agree with your assessment.

I am going to provide some counter arguments to the positions you listed that are often cited:

A 1/2. They are the same thing. What is one of the main jobs of an AD if not scheduling? In fact, when I was talking to a current AD about this he interrupted me and said, "It's their job."

I recognize the difficulties. Even though it's only one or two games a year, they can only occur on a Thursday or a Friday. There isn't as much flexibility as there is with other sports. It is harder for teams like Northwest Missouri and Fort Hays to schedule. A big reason guarantees were paid in the past at Pitt and Northwest was because of commitments to the suite holder to have x amount of games on campus each year while also playing the Arrowhead game. I believe those commitments have expired and there is more flexibility. So yes, there are difficulties but we need to quit pretending that it's impossible or even extremely difficult to accomplish. I understand that it makes the AD's job easier and they likely don't want to face the wrath of finding the perfect opponent for their head coaches, but they usually get paid a very nice salary.

A3. This is exactly the reason that the MIAA should have non-conference games - not only for itself but for Division Ii as a whole. There are 15+ potential non-conference opponents closer to Northwest than Central Oklahoma. The MIAA is in the best location in the country to play non-conference games.

B1. There have been two trophies handed out each of the last two years.

B2. Can be a negative as well. Lindenwood's SOS was higher than all the MIAA teams.

B3. I can make a case for the name brand being harmed by this scheduling arrangement.

B4. I don't know that this is the case. I have thought about researching this.

I will expand more, later.

As usual, Brandon has his finger firmly on the pulse of things. "One of the main jobs of an AD" is to schedule. It must be very comforting for them to know that job is done for them with silo scheduling as all they have to do on that front is pencil in the schedule with the rotation of conference games each year. Box checked. Job done. MIAA ADs make real money and in this one individual facet of their job aren't really earning it.

The pretense that it is "impossible or even extremely difficult" to schedule out of conference games is just BS. The first thing that needs to happen is to look more broadly at all options.

[BearcatDude]

I know that I have contacted the University President and let him know how I felt on the subject and why. But that was several years ago and Dr J and I had communicated about a wide range of things.

[northwest missouri state]

I don't think for a minute that is true.

i agree it's absurd
dudes don't want to do their jobs
the thing about silo is it makes ad's life easy
that's really the answer to the initial question posed itt
& it infuriates me. :)

***

you know it's bad when ps, nwms, & mw fans come together forming a unified front.

[GrifFan]

[northwest missouri state]

when rolla left iirc^^^
it is a heck of a lot more fun as a fan. it also helps to contextualize relative league strength.
d2 is as close to cfb before the tv boom as you can get - most of us haven't seen these teams we run into in the po's but having some ooc's to go off of you can get an idea.....w/o them the records are almost worthless to try & compare. 9-2 in one league isn't the same as 9-2 in another & w/ silo good luck figuring it out.
i look forward to the day we only get one team in - wouldn't mind us getting 0 in either (not that that's a reasonable possibility at the moment) if it'll get a us a couple ooc's on the schedule

[Gorilla John 92]

An AD's job is more than just scheduling football games it is managing an entire athletic program. With that management is something that they can not control and that is the balance sheet. Here's a news flash, enrollment's in higher education in our area is DECLINING. With this comes fewer dollars in student fees for athletics unless you gouge the student to pay even more in fees. This also forces the AD to become more of a fundraiser and sell advertising in whatever way is possible. How many of our institutions have alumni that can drop significant monies year after year into the program? Costs of insurance and travel have also increased so what does that mean to the overall budget? The elephant in the room that no one wants to talk about is the cost of travel for football. Let's face it, for the most part we are spoiled. Does NW or UCM really need to have a Friday night hotel and meal expense when they are playing each other? Those without strong ties to athletics would argue "no". The pure numbers of those traveling in football makes this a huge expense and could these dollars go elsewhere in the budget. While football drives revenue, does it really offset the increased costs of travel etc?

Why do you think student attendance at playoff games is dismal? The easy argument is that they are on break which is true but how many don't want to pony up $5 to go to the game? More than many of you are willing to acknowledge. They would rather spend it on something else like an overpriced cup of coffee at Starbucks, a movie or something else. It truly amazes me when students complain about finances and when you get down into the nitty gritty on what they are spending their money on it's things that are vices. For us old timers there was a saying that liquor and cigarettes are recession proof. You can now add coffee and wireless access with their phone IMO. i see students daily spending upwards of $10 - $15 on coffee alone or drop a quick $7 - $10 on a Chic-Fil-Lay sandwich, waffle fries and a drink but won't even think about dropping extra money to an athletic event.

While I personally would like to see some non-con games, there is so much more to this than just scheduling. The ADs job has changed significantly over the past 20 years and will only become harder with declining numbers of high school graduates in our area and thus fewer dollars generated with student athletic fees.

[Brandon]

An AD's job is more than just scheduling football games it is managing an entire athletic program. With that management is something that they can not control and that is the balance sheet. Here's a news flash, enrollment's in higher education in our area is DECLINING. With this comes fewer dollars in student fees for athletics unless you gouge the student to pay even more in fees. This also forces the AD to become more of a fundraiser and sell advertising in whatever way is possible. How many of our institutions have alumni that can drop significant monies year after year into the program? Costs of insurance and travel have also increased so what does that mean to the overall budget? The elephant in the room that no one wants to talk about is the cost of travel for football. Let's face it, for the most part we are spoiled. Does NW or UCM really need to have a Friday night hotel and meal expense when they are playing each other? Those without strong ties to athletics would argue "no". The pure numbers of those traveling in football makes this a huge expense and could these dollars go elsewhere in the budget. While football drives revenue, does it really offset the increased costs of travel etc?

Why do you think student attendance at playoff games is dismal? The easy argument is that they are on break which is true but how many don't want to pony up $5 to go to the game? More than many of you are willing to acknowledge. They would rather spend it on something else like an overpriced cup of coffee at Starbucks, a movie or something else. It truly amazes me when students complain about finances and when you get down into the nitty gritty on what they are spending their money on it's things that are vices. For us old timers there was a saying that liquor and cigarettes are recession proof. You can now add coffee and wireless access with their phone IMO. i see students daily spending upwards of $10 - $15 on coffee alone or drop a quick $7 - $10 on a Chic-Fil-Lay sandwich, waffle fries and a drink but won't even think about dropping extra money to an athletic event.

While I personally would like to see some non-con games, there is so much more to this than just scheduling. The ADs job has changed significantly over the past 20 years and will only become harder with declining numbers of high school graduates in our area and thus fewer dollars generated with student athletic fees.

If administrators are worried about attendance, wouldn't a more interesting schedule be preferable to one that is less interesting?

Do you think ADs feel their programs are entitled to fans' attention and attendance no matter the opponent?

[CatFan88]

An AD's job is more than just scheduling football games it is managing an entire athletic program. With that management is something that they can not control and that is the balance sheet. Here's a news flash, enrollment's in higher education in our area is DECLINING. With this comes fewer dollars in student fees for athletics unless you gouge the student to pay even more in fees. This also forces the AD to become more of a fundraiser and sell advertising in whatever way is possible. How many of our institutions have alumni that can drop significant monies year after year into the program? Costs of insurance and travel have also increased so what does that mean to the overall budget? The elephant in the room that no one wants to talk about is the cost of travel for football. Let's face it, for the most part we are spoiled. Does NW or UCM really need to have a Friday night hotel and meal expense when they are playing each other? Those without strong ties to athletics would argue "no". The pure numbers of those traveling in football makes this a huge expense and could these dollars go elsewhere in the budget. While football drives revenue, does it really offset the increased costs of travel etc?

Why do you think student attendance at playoff games is dismal? The easy argument is that they are on break which is true but how many don't want to pony up $5 to go to the game? More than many of you are willing to acknowledge. They would rather spend it on something else like an overpriced cup of coffee at Starbucks, a movie or something else. It truly amazes me when students complain about finances and when you get down into the nitty gritty on what they are spending their money on it's things that are vices. For us old timers there was a saying that liquor and cigarettes are recession proof. You can now add coffee and wireless access with their phone IMO. i see students daily spending upwards of $10 - $15 on coffee alone or drop a quick $7 - $10 on a Chic-Fil-Lay sandwich, waffle fries and a drink but won't even think about dropping extra money to an athletic event.

While I personally would like to see some non-con games, there is so much more to this than just scheduling. The ADs job has changed significantly over the past 20 years and will only become harder with declining numbers of high school graduates in our area and thus fewer dollars generated with student athletic fees.

To get this straight, you are generally in favor of MIAA silo scheduling for FOOTBALL because of budget? What's the basketball budget? What's the baseball budget? What's the soccer budget? What's the track budget? Are they limited to a silo schedule because of budget?

Here's another question. The NCAA has thrown out strict regionalization for football. By that I mean the 5-7 seeds are no longer considered ranked and can be shipped to other regions to eliminate flight costs. Does that favor or hinder a football silo schedule? The MIAA is centrally located. NW and UCM could probably save a ton of money playing somebody closer like Truman, LU for example than traveling to UCO or Northeastern.

The budget reasoning in favor of a football silo schedule has been exhausted. Boo.

Here's my take...the lure of collegiate football to football players is the opportunity to compete nationally, not "locally". Silo scheduling is and will be the demise of the MIAA as a football power. NW and Pitt St. didn't get to be national powers playing only MIAA schools. Non-conference scheduling becomes an inherent recruiting tool that opens your institution to the possibility of bringing prospective students from all over the country.

[Gorilla John 92]

If administrators are worried about attendance, wouldn't a more interesting schedule be preferable to one that is less interesting?

Do you think ADs feel their programs are entitled to fans' attention and attendance no matter the opponent?

A more interesting schedule "could" bring in more fans but not necessarily "would" bring in more fans. Success on the field is also important for most programs. If folks at NW feel a better schedule would bring in more fans as they are tired of seeing the same teams, they are the anomaly IMO. Nebraska's consecutive sellout streak ended this year which dated back to the early 60's. Why? Poor play on the field and the die hard older fans who would never miss a game are dead or unable to attend games with the younger crowd choosing to NOT spend their time/money attending games. This is also true for small college sports as well and most programs don't have those mega donors to help them out.

If an AD believes that their program is entitled to fans no matter who the opponent, they are dead wrong. The product on the field/court/pitch etc needs to be quality as well. No one needs to look farther than Pitt for an example. Pitt may have had more fans at the game in the 'Burg than Indy but not by much. That is not about silo scheduling but the perceived quality of the program/team by there fans.

My point is that there is much more than a silo schedule that doesn't put butts in the stands or pays the bills. The student of today, who has already paid to attend a game via student fees, ISN'T attending as they have in the past. They have other interests or don't want to spend the time watching the game. They live in the world of highlights, sound bites and 10 - 30 second entertainment. They, administrators, already have that money and that pot is shrinking while expenses keep rising. A different opponent may bring in more people for "a game" but what are the costs of going elsewhere to play another game? In the end did your budget take a hit for playing these games? With a silo schedule, you can easily determine your travel budgets and have history of places to stay etc and adjust your budgets accordingly from year-to-year. Now if you happen to have two or three of the "byes" on your home schedule, you better hope that they fall around family day, homecoming or senior day in hopes of a larger crowd.

Someone asked me why the Mules don't enter into an agreement like Pitt or NW and use a hotel/local tax etc to help fund an indoor facility. I said it will never work as while the 'Burg may have some good occupancy rates at hotels, the vast majority of them are tax exempt. Think about it. The air force, national guard drill weekends, state schools from Missouri traveling to an event or the University bringing someone in are all tax exempt so where would the revenue come from? Graduations etc just won't generate enough to pay the bill.

[OnceaBearcat]

Nebraska streak still going at 374 consecutive sellouts. Notre Dame's streak did end earlier this fall with 273.

[Brandon]

A more interesting schedule "could" bring in more fans but not necessarily "would" bring in more fans. Success on the field is also important for most programs. If folks at NW feel a better schedule would bring in more fans as they are tired of seeing the same teams, they are the anomaly IMO. Nebraska's consecutive sellout streak ended this year which dated back to the early 60's. Why? Poor play on the field and the die hard older fans who would never miss a game are dead or unable to attend games with the younger crowd choosing to NOT spend their time/money attending games. This is also true for small college sports as well and most programs don't have those mega donors to help them out.

If an AD believes that their program is entitled to fans no matter who the opponent, they are dead wrong. The product on the field/court/pitch etc needs to be quality as well. No one needs to look farther than Pitt for an example. Pitt may have had more fans at the game in the 'Burg than Indy but not by much. That is not about silo scheduling but the perceived quality of the program/team by there fans.

My point is that there is much more than a silo schedule that doesn't put butts in the stands or pays the bills. The student of today, who has already paid to attend a game via student fees, ISN'T attending as they have in the past. They have other interests or don't want to spend the time watching the game. They live in the world of highlights, sound bites and 10 - 30 second entertainment. They, administrators, already have that money and that pot is shrinking while expenses keep rising. A different opponent may bring in more people for "a game" but what are the costs of going elsewhere to play another game? In the end did your budget take a hit for playing these games? With a silo schedule, you can easily determine your travel budgets and have history of places to stay etc and adjust your budgets accordingly from year-to-year. Now if you happen to have two or three of the "byes" on your home schedule, you better hope that they fall around family day, homecoming or senior day in hopes of a larger crowd.

I don't think folks at NW have even considered those thoughts since they are one of the programs that vote against opening the schedule.

But you personally don't bore of seeing the exact same teams over and over?

I don't view D1 to D2 comparisons as being relevant, especially on this issue. Plus, Nebraska's schedule has been diverse. In four years, only 14/29 games featured the same teams in more than one game. In the MIAA, that would be 22/22.

Oh there is no doubt that more than the schedule affects attendance, but I am not willing to dismiss the effects nonetheless. I am also unwilling to exclusively blame the students for any attendance issues.

[Gorilla John 92]

Nebraska streak still going at 374 consecutive sellouts. Notre Dame's streak did end earlier this fall with 273.

Oops, got mixed up I was watching the Norte Dame game when I heard that and reversed the teams. Still amazed that the streak is still alive given the product on the field but then again, Nebraska fans are a different breed.

[Gorilla John 92]

I don't think folks at NW have even considered those thoughts since they are one of the programs that vote against opening the schedule.

But you personally don't bore of seeing the exact same teams over and over?

I don't view D1 to D2 comparisons as being relevant, especially on this issue. Plus, Nebraska's schedule has been diverse. In four years, only 14/29 games featured the same teams in more than one game. In the MIAA, that would be 22/22.

Oh there is no doubt that more than the schedule affects attendance, but I am not willing to dismiss the effects nonetheless. I am also unwilling to exclusively blame the students for any attendance issues.

I personally don't bore with seeing the same teams every year and realize i am probably in the minority. Like you stated DII is much different than DI but I loved Norte Dame's schedule every year prior to them joining the ACC in other sports and having to play a few ACC teams each year on a rotating basis.

I too am not solely blaming the students but these students that haven't been attending this past decade or so are becoming alumni and not filling the gaps of the older folks that never missed. I have been at UCM for just under 20 years and attend most home games in football, basketball and about half of volleyball games. What I am seeing is that people closer to my age and younger are not regularly attending games and the older crowd I always saw is becoming smaller each year. What schools need to do to garner some more attendance, I don't know but something needs to happen to get the younger crowd coming to games.

[Brandon]

By the way.....thanks for a good conversation GJ92.

[Godfather]

If they were allowed to schedule 1 non con game , I think William Jewell phone would be ringing off the hook, because of their proximity to MIAA schools.