West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

[boatcapt]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

You'll need to see him on the court before making any real assessments. Lincoln has had some really, really weak teams. He likely didn't have much help.

IUP opened with them last year but I don't remember him. That game got real out of hand. They won by 20-something but it was a deceiving final. He ended up with a decent stat line in that game. I know Joe emptied the bench the last 9-10 minutes so I don't know when his points came.

He's certainly going to be surrounded by significantly more talent. Lincoln kind of played street ball, though, so it will be interesting to see how he fits the structure of WL.

I think he can contribute but I just don't see him as the starting PG or even the #2 PG. As you point out, he was on bad Lincoln teams. If he was truly that gifted as a PG, he should have had no real problem winning the job. And a gifted PG can certainly score from that position so you can't say that the team was better off with him as almost strictly an outside shooter.

Not a lot of video I could find on him but what I was able to find showed a spot jump shooter. Certainly he can handle the ball but from what I saw he was not overly quick off the dribble. Could be just a case of limited video that didn't really show his true ability, but I think we would have some pretty major problems if he comes in and beats out a senior with three years in the program, and two second year players (Dyer and Bolton) that should be our PG tandem the following two years. But hey...you never know. Hate to keep trotting Griffin out but he did certainly exceed expectations.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

You'll need to see him on the court before making any real assessments. Lincoln has had some really, really weak teams. He likely didn't have much help.

IUP opened with them last year but I don't remember him. That game got real out of hand. They won by 20-something but it was a deceiving final. He ended up with a decent stat line in that game. I know Joe emptied the bench the last 9-10 minutes so I don't know when his points came.

He's certainly going to be surrounded by significantly more talent. Lincoln kind of played street ball, though, so it will be interesting to see how he fits the structure of WL.

[boatcapt]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Sorry, just don't see Watson as a PG. He played for three years on some pretty bad Lincoln teams and was never more than the forth option from an assist per game standpoint. What he does appear to be was Lincoln's first option from 3 point range. But I would note that he is a .377 career shooter from beyond the arc.

As a jump shooter, he seems to be more of a spot shooter vice a player that gets the ball and finds space.

Both Watson and Arnold have played three years so here are a couple of comparisons:

3 Point shooting: Arnold 41.8% (92 of 220), Watson 37.7% (95 of 252)
Assists: Arnold 177, Watson 58
Games Played: Arnold 96, Watson 61
Games Started: Arnold 9, Watson 44

Anyone know what happened to Watson last year? He played in Lincoln's first 11 games but none after that. That seems to indicate an injury but there is nothing I can find about that. They were playing JC Smith and he came out of the game at the 17:25 mark of the first half in what looks like a typical team substitution...and never returned to the court wearing a Lincoln uniform.

[IUP Extra Mile]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

My thoughts on the upcoming season...and maybe some of it is wishful thinking, maybe some of it is naivete....

I think Saben is NOT going to redshirt and will contribute this year.

I think Bolon will have a good season, with significant minutes.

I think Allen will be a stud...

Monteroso, who will have a full year of hoops behind him without football, will be unstoppable..His athleticism is off the charts, and a game changer at D2 level. Everyone forgets he pulled a hammy vs WJ in regional, and still should have won..He'll average 23 and will garner AA votes...

I'm not as high on Arnold as others...Hope I'm wrong heading into his sr season...I'm not sure he can penetrate and dish and setup the others as WL PG should...I think Watson will get solid minutes here...and could see Arnold playing off the ball more..

I think a battle for mins will come down to Smith vs French...both similar players in my mind...Decent shooters, decent penetrators, able to get to lane...play with moxie and smarts, but not sure either will supplant Griffin and can't see both play at same time...

Meiny and Frosh Moore will get interior mins....and hope they are both up to the rebounding task..NOt much size on this team, but i'd still rather have shooters than bigs..

Starters:
Monty
Griffin
Arnold (But Watson by year end)
Allen
Bolon

Off Bench:
Meiny
Saben
Moore
Smith / French

[DownLow55]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Tier 1 The TOP PRODUCERS. Monteroso will definently get heavy minutes! I also see Arnold getting heavy minutes...not as heavy as Monteroso but still pretty heavy. Both need to average over 30 per game with Monty at or above 35 MPG. I think the performance of those two will dictate to a large extent what the 17-18 Toppers become. As good as Monty played last season, he only averaged 18 PPG...He needs to be well over 20 this year and probably at or above 25 PPG. Arnold needs to "be Dennis" from an assist and scoring stand point. Give him "Dennis minutes" and his historic production argues it certainly is in the relm of realistic possibility. He needs to move his production from possible to real now that he will be the starter.

Tier 2 The CRITICAL STARTING COGS. Probably be Meininger, Griffin and either French or Allen. This tier players should average in the low 20's minute wise. Meini needs to understand that he is the defacto "big" on this team and step his rebounding up considerably. If he does that well, his scoring will by default increase to the 10 PPG range which is were we need him. Griffin...Is he the scrub player we thought we had picked up as a last minute signee just to give us a practice dummy, is he the guy who came in and scored 15 points off the bench in his first game, grabbed a starting spot by mid season and scored in double digits 13 times, ORRRR is he the guy that scored 0, 0 and 3 in three of WLU's last 4 games? Need him to be a consistent mid teens scorer. I put French and Allen together because I see them locked in a fight for the last starting position...I probably should have thrown Smith in with them as well. Which ever one ultimately wins, we need them to be a big contributor with their scoring in the upper teens per game.

Tier 3 The KEY RESERVES. High quality depth is the straw that stirs the WLU drink. This years Toppers will need to ID a new cast of characters who can be plugged in and produce at any point in the game. These critical reserves need to average 10 to 15 minutes per game and score in the 10 PPG range. In addition to the two players above who don't win the starting nod, I see Luke Dyer being the principle back up at PG, Moore and Ochoa vieing for the principle back up "big." Watson I think will fill an important position here...that of the designated sniper. He needs to be instant outside offense...I don't see him playing a ton of minutes but he needs to be highly efficient and productive in those minutes.

Tier 4 The DEEP DEPTH. Let me start by saying a WLU "Deep Depth" player should not be confused with an end of the bench player on a typical team that only gets minutes in garbage time of blowouts. Particuarly through the first half of the season, there is not much difference between the "key reserves" and the "deep depth" players. These players will be given every opportunity to work themselves up the "food chain"...all they have to do is perform and the minutes will keep coming. Case in point, Griffin started last season in this group (actually near the BOTTOM of this group) and worked his way into the starting lineup by mid season. I think the "deep depth" player to keep a serious eye on is Dalton Bolton...he could be primed to be a surprise break out player this year.

The Redshirts. Saben and Yoakum. They have ability but are both painfully thin. Give them a year in the weight room and hitting the cafeteria. 20 pounds of muscle will be transformative for both players! I'd like to see Ochoa here but I think our size issues will force him on to the court.

Saben is 6-3 195. I would say the roles of Allen, Watson and Bolton are going to be very important this year.

[boatcapt]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

I find this years squad quite interesting. Many questions but some very interesting options that either have shown flashes of being really really good or that are first year players that have shown well previously be it in HS or on other D1, DII or JUCO teams. We will need to have a few of them to reach their full potential immediately to be really good. If they do, this is a team that could make some serious noise come playoff time. BUUUTT...if none of them are quite ready this year, we could struggle and be closer to 500 than we have been in quite a while. Watching how this evolves will be worth the price of the ticket!

Because WLU is what they are, we will always get every teams best shot and you know they are itching to exact some revenge for the beatings we dished out over the last 10 years. Many programs probably feel like this is their chance to hit us when they think we are down. Team needs to own that and go into the season with a chip on their shoulders and try to deliver a good old fashon WLU a$$ woopin' to every opponent! Kind of a "You thought you could run with us?? Were WLU...we dont rebuild, we reload! Now watch us rain 3s on you and run you into the dirt!!"

While Im certainly most interested in this year, looking at the roster I cant help but feel that this team will be a force the next year and the year after that.

[Columbuseer]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Great analysis as always, Boatcapt.
I think your comment about deep depth players being different from garbage time players o nother teams is what makes it so hard for me to map the Tier 2- Tier 4 players with certainty. Everyone can shoot, drive, hit 3 pt shots, dribble, rebound, pass and play defense. As you said individual performance can be very dynamic over time.

I think their basketball IQ, ability to pick up the west liberty style, meet defensive effort expectations and play error-free when in the game will largely determine their playing time. These are intangibles that don't show up in highlight videos.

[boatcapt]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Tier 1 The TOP PRODUCERS. Monteroso will definently get heavy minutes! I also see Arnold getting heavy minutes...not as heavy as Monteroso but still pretty heavy. Both need to average over 30 per game with Monty at or above 35 MPG. I think the performance of those two will dictate to a large extent what the 17-18 Toppers become. As good as Monty played last season, he only averaged 18 PPG...He needs to be well over 20 this year and probably at or above 25 PPG. Arnold needs to "be Dennis" from an assist and scoring stand point. Give him "Dennis minutes" and his historic production argues it certainly is in the relm of realistic possibility. He needs to move his production from possible to real now that he will be the starter.

Tier 2 The CRITICAL STARTING COGS. Probably be Meininger, Griffin and either French or Allen. This tier players should average in the low 20's minute wise. Meini needs to understand that he is the defacto "big" on this team and step his rebounding up considerably. If he does that well, his scoring will by default increase to the 10 PPG range which is were we need him. Griffin...Is he the scrub player we thought we had picked up as a last minute signee just to give us a practice dummy, is he the guy who came in and scored 15 points off the bench in his first game, grabbed a starting spot by mid season and scored in double digits 13 times, ORRRR is he the guy that scored 0, 0 and 3 in three of WLU's last 4 games? Need him to be a consistent mid teens scorer. I put French and Allen together because I see them locked in a fight for the last starting position...I probably should have thrown Smith in with them as well. Which ever one ultimately wins, we need them to be a big contributor with their scoring in the upper teens per game.

Tier 3 The KEY RESERVES. High quality depth is the straw that stirs the WLU drink. This years Toppers will need to ID a new cast of characters who can be plugged in and produce at any point in the game. These critical reserves need to average 10 to 15 minutes per game and score in the 10 PPG range. In addition to the two players above who don't win the starting nod, I see Luke Dyer being the principle back up at PG, Moore and Ochoa vieing for the principle back up "big." Watson I think will fill an important position here...that of the designated sniper. He needs to be instant outside offense...I don't see him playing a ton of minutes but he needs to be highly efficient and productive in those minutes.

Tier 4 The DEEP DEPTH. Let me start by saying a WLU "Deep Depth" player should not be confused with an end of the bench player on a typical team that only gets minutes in garbage time of blowouts. Particuarly through the first half of the season, there is not much difference between the "key reserves" and the "deep depth" players. These players will be given every opportunity to work themselves up the "food chain"...all they have to do is perform and the minutes will keep coming. Case in point, Griffin started last season in this group (actually near the BOTTOM of this group) and worked his way into the starting lineup by mid season. I think the "deep depth" player to keep a serious eye on is Dalton Bolton...he could be primed to be a surprise break out player this year.

The Redshirts. Saben and Yoakum. They have ability but are both painfully thin. Give them a year in the weight room and hitting the cafeteria. 20 pounds of muscle will be transformative for both players! I'd like to see Ochoa here but I think our size issues will force him on to the court.

[Columbuseer]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Less than 90 days from tipoff.
Who among the new guys will push for playing time?
Disclaimer: I have not watched them practice or play since the end of the season. Pure speculation driven by boredom.

Have they started playing pick up games at West Lib? Any inside scoops on who looks most improved?
Looking at roster, I see only one sure fire lock for heavy minutes.
Tier 1 heavy minutes
Monterosa
Tier 2 - see significant action, amount depends on opponent match up and who has hot hand.
Nate Allen - ex d1, Looks strong like Winbush from fairmont
James Griffin - ex d1 - came on strong 2nd half of year
Brady Arnold - driven to win.
Brandon Smith - it is amazing his injury did not end his career.
Jordan Watson (soley due to 1200 minutes of starting time and scoring ability , assuming he adjusts)- I see him spelling Brady

Meininger? - if he slims down, improves quickness and maintains strength, look out.
Bolon? - looks stronger from photos

Everyone else Tier (free for all competition for minutes)


Possible Redshirt? (due to not enough minutes to go around)
Yoakum - needs to get stronger, but I like his game
Ochoa - great timing and leaping ability

[ssidiver]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Hopefully, the psychiatric counseling will help to remove any dangling, unresolved issues , so to speak. I hope so.

"Dangling." Heh.

[Columbuseer]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Also indecent exposure is considered a sex crime while disorderly conduct is not. I would imagine it would be difficult to get a job as a college coach if you were a registered sex offender.

The unfortunate realty is that if he truly did expose himself, there is a pretty good chance he will do it again. These things don't tend to "clear up" on their own.

Hopefully, the psychiatric counseling will help to remove any dangling, unresolved issues , so to speak. I hope so.

[boatcapt]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Also indecent exposure is considered a sex crime while disorderly conduct is not. I would imagine it would be difficult to get a job as a college coach if you were a registered sex offender.

The unfortunate realty is that if he truly did expose himself, there is a pretty good chance he will do it again. These things don't tend to "clear up" on their own.

[Columbuseer]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/Do...wyd-trail.html
Ah, the old plea bargain tactic. He fired previous lawyer, and new lawyer plea bargained the multiple counts of indecent exposure into 3 counts of disorderly conduct. Smart move on his part. It allows him to frame the dialogue carefully to vaguely imply but not state that he was just urinating (as he had claimed before) and someone sneaked a peak. As a result, the account by the mainstream media afterJul 19 verdict is now squeaky clean as just a guy who used bad judgment in using the bathroom beside the trail.
Read the account of the witnesses above from may 3 and see if you concur.
He is still listed as the coach, probably due to disorderly conduct plea bargain. Hope it does not come back to bite the university, if he has ongoing issues.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Is Overton still the coach? I'd be amazed if a coach could survive that act.

[Columbuseer]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

More stuff on Jordan Watson and Lincoln.
He is 6-2 and has great hops from watching hudl.com
Previous coach who recruited him said he is an incredible scorer and that Jordan believes he can score on anyone at anytime.
Very good 3 pt shooter with great form, quick release and great range.
If he can embrace the West Lib style, he could help.
BTW, Doug Overton (coach of Lincoln) pleaded guilty to reduced charges of indecent exposure on Jul 19 and will undergo psychiatric treatment. Had several witnesses refute his defense of simple need for urination in the woods off the trail (unless he is really absent minded and forgot to put things back in his sweatpants, before starting to walk down the trail while staring at women).
Hope the treatment works, as flashers have a tendency to progress to more aggressive attacks.