Iup basketball

[Columbuseer]

Re: Iup basketball

Elite 8 appearances are heavily in Crutch's favor, no denying that. Head to head? 3-2 with a fairly comfortable win on each side and 3 barnburners that could have gone either way. Hardly an advantage worth thumping your chest over. But I don't blame Crutch for not giving Joe a chance to even the series. Just like I don't blame him for running to Florida once the MEC started punching back a little.

I have been studying about fallacies in inductive arguments. The media inundates us with fallacious arguments.
I am not trying to beat you up, but your argument regarding the reason for Crutch leaving WLU has a non sequitur (conclusion does not follow from premises) fallacy.
Premises:
1. Crutch went 28-4 at WLU in 2016-17, which is about his 12 year average (#1 in NCAA in winning % with >= 10 yrs experience)
2. Nova won 6 games last year and had only 3 wins in conference.

Conclusion: Crutch left WLU and ran to Nova because he was tired to losing to conference schools.

The conclusion (He left for Nova SE because he was tired of losing conference games) does not follow from the premises. Who would go to conference doormat from West Lib who won the conference tournament?

The SSC had the national champion 3 or 4 years ago in FLorida Southern.
I can't speak for Crutch, but I know why I would leave West Lib or IUP for that matter to Nova SE

1. Incredible campus and facilities. They just got a 32x12 foot jumbotron
3. West Lib like academics - Average GPA for all athletes (not just basketball) was 3.32.
4. $100M endowment
5. Strong Foreign student presence - Two from Sweden are on the basketball team - that may be source of talented big men for Crutch's system.
6. He wanted a new challenge at this stage of his career.
7. Access to 7 Million people in the greater Miami area

With these recruiting advantages Nova SE could be a sleeping giant under Crutch and could obtain the talent and environment to make a serious national title run in 2 yrs.

I think both Crutch and Lombardi are outstanding coaches. It is a pleasure to watch them in action. IMHO, there are advantages to both in not playing in the regular season. The primary one is not to give each other experience prior to the regional game.
I don't think it is relevant that WLU handed Fairmont its only 2 losses (and lost a late lead at Fairmont in the other meeting) prior to the national title game and IUP lost to FSU. It is all about match-ups and the style of play. So I don't subscribe to the who ducked whom discussion.
However, I don't understand why a D1 school won't play West Lib when they will play IUP, Wheeling Jesuit, Glenville, and others. Crutch has been wanting a game with WVU. I thought this was going to be the year, but there were likely scheduling issues. Clearly it would be a long shot for West Lib to hang with a major D1 for the entire game.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: Iup basketball

And, ... if (big if) IUP is ever going to win that last game of the season ... it may be in one of these next two years. Joe's loaded in all facets this year and next. These are the two teams the past two years were spent building up.


Whomever gets out of the Atlantic this year is going to have a real shot at cutting down the final net.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: Iup basketball

My favorite Billy Beane quote:

If you lose the last game of the season nobody cares.

[Chuck Norris]

Re: Iup basketball

And conversely I'll stack Crutch's record in head to head games v IUP, number of regional titles and Elite 8 appearances to IUP's under Joe. As you say, absolutely no comparison. All we've heard for years from the IUP camp is about how their tough schedule early in the season make them tougher in the playoffs. Of course, that seems to go out the window most of the time when they have faced WLU. I really don't blame Joe for coming up with a wacky scheme he figured Crutch would summarily dismiss...why would he really want to take another loss to Crutch???

Elite 8 appearances are heavily in Crutch's favor, no denying that. Head to head? 3-2 with a fairly comfortable win on each side and 3 barnburners that could have gone either way. Hardly an advantage worth thumping your chest over. But I don't blame Crutch for not giving Joe a chance to even the series. Just like I don't blame him for running to Florida once the MEC started punching back a little.

[boatcapt]

Re: Iup basketball

It's entirely possible that this is 100% accurate. But if I'm gonna give one side the benefit of the doubt, I'll just look at the non conference schedules IUP plays under Joe vs what West Lib played under Crutch. Absolutely no comparison. Joe has all the leverage here. He doesn't need West Lib in order to put together a formidable non con schedule. Never has, never will. Conversely all we've heard for years from the West Lib camp is the whining about how no one will play them. Well, apparently the offer was there. Was it a bit of a strong arming attempt on Joe's part if all the details are true? Yeah it was. And I don't blame him. IUP built him a big fancy arena and he's trying to fill it.

And conversely I'll stack Crutch's record in head to head games v IUP, number of regional titles and Elite 8 appearances to IUP's under Joe. As you say, absolutely no comparison. All we've heard for years from the IUP camp is about how their tough schedule early in the season make them tougher in the playoffs. Of course, that seems to go out the window most of the time when they have faced WLU. I really don't blame Joe for coming up with a wacky scheme he figured Crutch would summarily dismiss...why would he really want to take another loss to Crutch???

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: Iup basketball

It is strange given the success he had here that he's really just been a very average coach at Francis Marion. He's been there a long time now. His strength was identifying quality transfers. But that takes money. I'm sure his resources aren't the same there.

He did have a Hall of Fame career at IUP. Obviously the ending 'ended' any chance of that happening.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: Iup basketball

No, you're right. I always think his 04-05 team won but they lost in the semifinals.

[Chuck Norris]

Re: Iup basketball

See Gary Edwards years. He scheduled just about every Penn State-Podunk branch campus out there.

He did play some cream-puffs. I'll give you that. BUT ... the PSAC was much smaller then. As you recall conference games didn't even start back then until after Christmas. I remember him telling me once they had to play a lot of those PSU-types just to fill out the schedules because there wasn't enough money to bring in opponents from a farther distance. In that era, too, all the West schools played those teams so essentially they all got a couple freebies. There was no Gannon, UPJ, Mercyhurst or Seton Hill back then.

Many of you know I'm a big fan of Edwards. Due to the ending, which was 'cloudier' than many realize, I think we tend to forget how successful he was at IUP. In 10 seasons he went 206-88 (.701), won 3 PSAC titles and won three Regional titles (including the 2001-02 Final Four appearance).

History doesn't talk about that 01-02 team often but that team went to the Final Four with 7 players (literally ... that's all that played). He also was very successful in an era when the West was much, much stronger. Cal was big-time. Clarion, believe it or not, was a power. Edinboro was very solid. Different era. Nobody ran the table then. It was a very exciting era in PSAC West basketball. Nothing to this day even comes close to the IUP vs. Cal games from, say, 1994 through 2003. It's hard to imagine an IUP men's game that you needed to be in your seat early in the women's game to make sure you had a seat for the men's game.

For all his perceived faults, Gary was a master on the big stage. He won big games when they counted the most. For the younger crowd ... if you think Kevin Reynolds is annoying ... Gary was on a different level. He drove opposing fans crazy.

I'd still take a 'big game' any day in the Field House over the KCAC. The noise level and atmosphere don't even compare.

I can only recall 2 regional championships under Gary. The Mike Beckles led team that caught fire in the regional and won their games by about 30 points each and the Dennis Mimms team.

I thought IUP currently stood at 6 regional championships, two each under Kanaskie, Gary and Joe. Am I forgetting one?

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: Iup basketball

It's entirely possible that this is 100% accurate. But if I'm gonna give one side the benefit of the doubt, I'll just look at the non conference schedules IUP plays under Joe vs what West Lib played under Crutch. Absolutely no comparison. Joe has all the leverage here. He doesn't need West Lib in order to put together a formidable non con schedule. Never has, never will. Conversely all we've heard for years from the West Lib camp is the whining about how no one will play them. Well, apparently the offer was there. Was it a bit of a strong arming attempt on Joe's part if all the details are true? Yeah it was. And I don't blame him. IUP built him a big fancy arena and he's trying to fill it.



Playing Fairmont State or Wheeling is just as good. As IUP24 said with Joe and Crutch you had two giant egos trying to make something happen. The odds weren't good of it happening. There is a definite benefit to keeping one top-tier MEC team on the schedule. Granted, IUP lost the game the past two years but that run is about to end. It's a great SOS boost if anything else. And, you're right, Joe's non-conference schedules are always challenging.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: Iup basketball

See Gary Edwards years. He scheduled just about every Penn State-Podunk branch campus out there.

He did play some cream-puffs. I'll give you that. BUT ... the PSAC was much smaller then. As you recall conference games didn't even start back then until after Christmas. I remember him telling me once they had to play a lot of those PSU-types just to fill out the schedules because there wasn't enough money to bring in opponents from a farther distance. In that era, too, all the West schools played those teams so essentially they all got a couple freebies. There was no Gannon, UPJ, Mercyhurst or Seton Hill back then.

Many of you know I'm a big fan of Edwards. Due to the ending, which was 'cloudier' than many realize, I think we tend to forget how successful he was at IUP. In 10 seasons he went 206-88 (.701), won 3 PSAC titles and won three Regional titles (including the 2001-02 Final Four appearance).

History doesn't talk about that 01-02 team often but that team went to the Final Four with 7 players (literally ... that's all that played). He also was very successful in an era when the West was much, much stronger. Cal was big-time. Clarion, believe it or not, was a power. Edinboro was very solid. Different era. Nobody ran the table then. It was a very exciting era in PSAC West basketball. Nothing to this day even comes close to the IUP vs. Cal games from, say, 1994 through 2003. It's hard to imagine an IUP men's game that you needed to be in your seat early in the women's game to make sure you had a seat for the men's game.

For all his perceived faults, Gary was a master on the big stage. He won big games when they counted the most. For the younger crowd ... if you think Kevin Reynolds is annoying ... Gary was on a different level. He drove opposing fans crazy.

I'd still take a 'big game' any day in the Field House over the KCAC. The noise level and atmosphere don't even compare.

[Chuck Norris]

Re: Iup basketball

I don't think either side truly wanted/wants to play the other in the regular season. Joe offering a 2 for 1 "deal" was not a legitimate attempt to schedule WLU. What it was was an attempt to make an "offer" that was so one sided that WLU would summarily decline which would him the ability to say they offered to play and WLU declined (implication being WLU was ducking IUP). Crutch for his part countered IUP's obsurd "offer" with one of his own that was equally designed to cause IUP to say, no.

If both sides truly wanted to play, it would be relatively easy to make happen...two year home and home...referee selection per normally accepted process. Fact that neither side offered/is offering that and instead resorts to lopsided proposals that they believe the other side will not accept tells me all I need to know.

It's entirely possible that this is 100% accurate. But if I'm gonna give one side the benefit of the doubt, I'll just look at the non conference schedules IUP plays under Joe vs what West Lib played under Crutch. Absolutely no comparison. Joe has all the leverage here. He doesn't need West Lib in order to put together a formidable non con schedule. Never has, never will. Conversely all we've heard for years from the West Lib camp is the whining about how no one will play them. Well, apparently the offer was there. Was it a bit of a strong arming attempt on Joe's part if all the details are true? Yeah it was. And I don't blame him. IUP built him a big fancy arena and he's trying to fill it.

[IUP CRIMSON HAWKS]

Re: Iup basketball

Valid point. And, of course, there's risk with playing those games. Often times one extra loss could cost you a dance spot. IUP has never went the cream puff route in the non-conference and there are years it hurt them. Look at Brandon Norfleet's senior season. One more win and that team would have made it (should have anyway). But, they paid the price for taking that big early schedule before the team was ready for it. I think they started 6-5 before going on that 14 or 15 game streak. The way they mauled the West last year ... well, you certainly can't expect that every year.

Look at this year .. Ferris State, Findlay, Fairmont, Bowie State (none at home) in addition to West Chester and ESU in crossover ... that's a big-boy schedule. Some West teams are going to be better this year. I actually think Cal is the second best team in the West entering the season. Mercyhurst had its rebuild year. SRU has some talent back plus a big class signed. IUP is going to be awfully good but I'd expect the random loss somewhere in the conference slate. To have a shot at hosting the regional the margin for error is probably about 2 losses. Three max most years.

See Gary Edwards years. He scheduled just about every Penn State-Podunk branch campus out there.

[boatcapt]

Re: Iup basketball

I don't think either side truly wanted/wants to play the other in the regular season. Joe offering a 2 for 1 "deal" was not a legitimate attempt to schedule WLU. What it was was an attempt to make an "offer" that was so one sided that WLU would summarily decline which would him the ability to say they offered to play and WLU declined (implication being WLU was ducking IUP). Crutch for his part countered IUP's obsurd "offer" with one of his own that was equally designed to cause IUP to say, no.

If both sides truly wanted to play, it would be relatively easy to make happen...two year home and home...referee selection per normally accepted process. Fact that neither side offered/is offering that and instead resorts to lopsided proposals that they believe the other side will not accept tells me all I need to know.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: Iup basketball

Valid point. And, of course, there's risk with playing those games. Often times one extra loss could cost you a dance spot. IUP has never went the cream puff route in the non-conference and there are years it hurt them. Look at Brandon Norfleet's senior season. One more win and that team would have made it (should have anyway). But, they paid the price for taking that big early schedule before the team was ready for it. I think they started 6-5 before going on that 14 or 15 game streak. The way they mauled the West last year ... well, you certainly can't expect that every year.

Look at this year .. Ferris State, Findlay, Fairmont, Bowie State (none at home) in addition to West Chester and ESU in crossover ... that's a big-boy schedule. Some West teams are going to be better this year. I actually think Cal is the second best team in the West entering the season. Mercyhurst had its rebuild year. SRU has some talent back plus a big class signed. IUP is going to be awfully good but I'd expect the random loss somewhere in the conference slate. To have a shot at hosting the regional the margin for error is probably about 2 losses. Three max most years.

[Chuck Norris]

Re: Iup basketball

Regardless of the he-said, she-said, they should have made it happen and didn't. Two elite programs two hours apart ... it could of (and should have been) worked out.

I'd love to see West Liberty or Wheeling Jesuit come to the annual tip-off tournament instead of Urbana.

That said, ... payback time for Fairmont State this season.

I'm still torn as to whether I want to see IUP and West Lib meet in the regular season. I always loved that they only met when the stakes were as high as they could be. A game at some point in December, especially here in Indiana where most of the community has yet to realize the season has started and the KCAC will be maybe 40% full, doesn't have the same luster. Of course, with a post season meeting no longer being a foregone conclusion the last couple years, a regular season meeting does get more appealing.