PSAC WEST

[Ship69]

Key phrase is a lot. All board volunteers and donors above $500 get a pass at Edinboro. Plus faculty & staff. Plus students. Plus parents of both teams. Some parents pay for football to get reserved seats vs general admission.

My point was that if I have a pass to the games it is because I've contributed revenue to the sports program. They're not getting revenue at the game site, but they have previously received it.

[Fightingscot82]

I wouldn't see it's all non-revenue. We get passes for the Raiders Club at Ship by hitting a certain minimum amount in contributions for the team. I'm sure other schools have a similar arrangement. I'm just not sure we're recording the people who enter the game with passes as attendees.

Key phrase is a lot. All board volunteers and donors above $500 get a pass at Edinboro. Plus faculty & staff. Plus students. Plus parents of both teams. Some parents pay for football to get reserved seats vs general admission.

[Fightingscot82]

I'm interested to see what is done at Cheyney. $48M renovation to Cope Hall. The pictures look nice but its clearly designed as a community sports facility not a college gym. O'Shields-Stevenson Stadium left to rot.

Slippery Rock will start a $42M renovation to Morrow next year. I believe since last year they also replaced the scoreboard and sound system for basketball. Pool still just sitting there for HPE classes. Sorry, Wellness Education.

Next up is a $45M renovation of McComb at Edinboro. About 15-20 years too late. Until the dome, the two most visited buildings on campus are the two most dated and worn out: McComb Fieldhouse and Sox Harrison Stadium. The lobby & halls are full of that red glaze square tile you'd notice from any fast food kitchen. The bathrooms are a rainbow of early 70s pastel subway tile and worn out fixtures. Fortunately they just slabbed some paint on the court to hide the powder blue tile (why did that even exist???) and the brown paint on the metal bleachers. Rumor has it new turf coming to Sox Harrison this summer. But the home side is preformed concrete and eroding like the Greenland ice sheet.

[Ship69]

For the PSAC, a lot of attendees for admission-based events is non-revenue. Pass holders, donors, sponsors, students, staff, parents, recruits, visiting team comps, etc. Usually there is at least one student per entrance with a pitch count style clicker.

I wouldn't say it's all non-revenue. We get passes for the Raiders Club at Ship by hitting a certain minimum amount in contributions for the team. I'm sure other schools have a similar arrangement. I'm just not sure we're recording the people who enter the game with passes as attendees.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

For the PSAC, a lot of attendees for admission-based events is non-revenue. Pass holders, donors, sponsors, students, staff, parents, recruits, visiting team comps, etc. Usually there is at least one student per entrance with a pitch count style clicker.

My favorite part of away games is still having to carry cash to buy a ticket.

West reviews:

IUP - Not being biased but the KCAC has by far the best atmosphere and ammenities in the league. It's not even close.

Clarion - Incredible renovation. Excellent D2 facility. The only thing lacking is no chair-back seats.

Cal - Beautiful building. I've always wondered what it would look like with more than 230 people inside it (including players)

Edinboro - McComb is a relic to a bygone era, but it still has some 1980s charm. Needs major updating.

UPJ - Lost in the 1960s

Seton Hill - Parking is a disaster and the McKenna Center is smaller than most AA high school gyms

Gannon - The Hammermill was historic but vastly outdated. I'm sure the renovation will make it similar to Clarion (which is a good thing)

Mercyhurst - The renovation was nice but it is terribly small and tight

Slippery Rock - Typical fieldhouse gym. Some recent updates helped (new floor, lighting).





The biggest downfall of the league, my opinion, is at 95% of our 'gyms' the atmosphere is identical to a high school game -- if anything our games just have smaller crowds.

For instance:

* Our in-game PA Announcers could all work at funeral homes (maybe they do). Buehler. Buehler. Buehler. For Goodness sakes get the local Redbull addict and get some excitement going.

* Player introductions are as exciting as watching paint dry. A few have gone to the no lights and video montage. All should be doing so. Watch D1 player intros and take notes.

* In-game music is geared for the Bingo Hall crowd -- not college campuses. Nobody wants to hear freaking Michael Bolton during a media timeout.


I've been to almost every gym in the PSAC. The lack of support at so many of our schools is sad. Of course, it takes two to tango. As I said yesterday, the league (and individual schools) couldn't do any worse job marketing these teams.

Are some of those attendance numbers figments of some SIDs' imagination? No doubt. Sadly, some (most) of them are not. They are real numbers (or, very close). California has one of the best teams in the country (arguably) and is drawing 220 people in a 6,000-seat arena. Granted, building it that big is a whole different topic, but 220 people? Does anybody in the Mon Valley know they still have a team? The Angelo Dome is my favorite road trip of the year. The atmosphere is God Awful, but, as a basketball fan, it is really cool because you can hear everything. There's no noise. Danny Sancomb unfiltered. Take earplugs for the kids.

Certain years IUP has a great atmosphere. Gannon was off the charts 25-30 years ago. Some called the Mill the toughest venue to play in America during that time. There are some clips online from that era. It was insane. Clarion oddly had one of the best home-gym advantages around in the 90s. It used to get so loud in there you'd get a headache.

Scary thing is about 80% (guessing) of our core fan base (league-wide) is over the age of 60 -- and either passing away or reaching the age they can no longer attend.

IUP basketball has a fairly younger following. IUP football has an AARP following.

[Fightingscot82]

I'm not sure how they count at some of the schools. Because I donate, I just show a card when I attend games. I've never seen anyone physically county me as I entered. I have no idea whether they account for a certain number of non-cash admissions, take a count of people in the stands, or do anything of the sort. It does look to me some nights as if we have more people there than is reported.

For the PSAC, a lot of attendees for admission-based events is non-revenue. Pass holders, donors, sponsors, students, staff, parents, recruits, visiting team comps, etc. Usually there is at least one student per entrance with a pitch count style clicker.

[bballfan03]

My experience mirrors yours. I have a pass; I show the pass; they let me in; no one writes anything down or counts a thing.

And the attendance number printed in the box score always feels light, so it makes me think they don't bother to count the pass-holders at all. I'm guessing they just take the ending ticket number and subtract the beginning ticket number--voila! There's your attendance figure. So only those who paid cash at the door and got a ticket actually get counted.

I know the ASRC @ WLU holds, like, 1200 people when at capacity. Regularly I'll look around and only see a handful of empty seats (maybe a couple hundred). So my eyeballs tell me it's around 1000 attendance. I get home and check the box score, which says 850 people went. I'm guessing the other 100+ are the pass-holders who never got counted.

Gannon still does the good ole' person walks up and down the aisle stairs with a clicker counter lol but they include all season tickets whether they're or not.

[Scrub]

I'm not sure how they count at some of the schools. Because I donate, I just show a card when I attend games. I've never seen anyone physically county me as I entered. I have no idea whether they account for a certain number of non-cash admissions, take a count of people in the stands, or do anything of the sort. It does look to me some nights as if we have more people there than is reported.

My experience mirrors yours. I have a pass; I show the pass; they let me in; no one writes anything down or counts a thing.

And the attendance number printed in the box score always feels light, so it makes me think they don't bother to count the pass-holders at all. I'm guessing they just take the ending ticket number and subtract the beginning ticket number--voila! There's your attendance figure. So only those who paid cash at the door and got a ticket actually get counted.

I know the ASRC @ WLU holds, like, 1200 people when at capacity. Regularly I'll look around and only see a handful of empty seats (maybe a couple hundred). So my eyeballs tell me it's around 1000 attendance. I get home and check the box score, which says 850 people went. I'm guessing the other 100+ are the pass-holders who never got counted.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

I'm not sure how they count at some of the schools. Because I donate, I just show a card when I attend games. I've never seen anyone physically county me as I entered. I have no idea whether they account for a certain number of non-cash admissions, take a count of people in the stands, or do anything of the sort. It does look to me some nights as if we have more people there than is reported.

I'd guess at the non 'everybody scans their ticket' schools they count the season ticket holders whether there or not. I assume every school does sell season tickets but maybe not.

IUP should be pretty accurate. You can't get in without scanning either a ticket or I-Card.

I've been to like 8 games at Clarion and maybe 3 times they even had anybody selling tickets.

I'd guess of the 18 schools about half are at least somewhat accurate and the other half are just made up numbers.

[boatcapt]

I'm not sure how they count at some of the schools. Because I donate, I just show a card when I attend games. I've never seen anyone physically county me as I entered. I have no idea whether they account for a certain number of non-cash admissions, take a count of people in the stands, or do anything of the sort. It does look to me some nights as if we have more people there than is reported.

Yes...then again, no...but, maybe??

[Ship69]

That's not a problem unique to the PSAC.

The PASSHE 6-7 week holiday break is the killer league-wide.

In IUP's instance, the move to 3pm games instead of the 730pm Saturday games (that they had played for 35 years) has been a total disaster at the gate.

Cal and Millersville are drawing horrible despite having really good teams.

Add to it marketing blows chunks at all 18 schools.

I'm not sure how they count at some of the schools. Because I donate, I just show a card when I attend games. I've never seen anyone physically county me as I entered. I have no idea whether they account for a certain number of non-cash admissions, take a count of people in the stands, or do anything of the sort. It does look to me some nights as if we have more people there than is reported.

[boatcapt]

Hard to say. It can't help.

I think most of our schools have a bigger local / townie following than student.

I would speculate that that is the same even at the D1 level (except for a few blue bloods). For example, my D1 Maryland. For football they get about 5K students that attend home games...MANY more locals/alumni. TV focuses their attention of the student section because it's usually the most vocal, but the majority of attendees are not students.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

I'm talking long term vice one season over the next. If enrolment is down 50% over 10 years for example, a 50% decline in average game attendance wouldn't be outside the expected realm.

Hard to say. It can't help.

I think most of our schools have a bigger local / townie following than student.

[boatcapt]

That's not a problem unique to the PSAC.

The PASSHE 6-7 week holiday break is the killer league-wide.

In IUP's instance, the move to 3pm games instead of the 730pm Saturday games (that they had played for 35 years) has been a total disaster at the gate.

Cal and Millersville are drawing horrible despite having really good teams.

Add to it marketing blows chunks at all 18 schools.

I'm talking long term vice one season over the next. If enrolment is down 50% over 10 years for example, a 50% decline in average game attendance wouldn't be outside the expected realm.

[Fightingscot82]

I know official attendance numbers are a bit sketchy, but I wonder how these numbers track with enrolment declines at the various schools? There are some schools in the PSAC that have taken major enrolment hits over the last 10+ years. Wonder if average game attendance is down a similar percentage?

That's very well possible. I don't go to many games but it does seem like student attendance is down across the board. Likely to having more accessible entertainment options. My dad went to basketball games in college because they were broke & bored. I went to most basketball games in college because it was fun and I knew some of the players. When I watch a game now it seems like the students in attendance are other athletes, basketball hounds, or close friends & significant others of the players. Kids these days don't go because they have school spirit. I also noticed the drop off in attendance of the locals. Most of the ones I knew have moved away or passed away. But even they too have more accessible entertainment options. Towns like Mansfield and Shippensburg used to rely on the campuses for a sense of higher culture and civic pride. Not so much anymore.