PSAC WEST

[Columbuseer]

You are missing the point entirely. You simply just believe that teams, your team in particular, should just schedule games that they will never lose.

It takes two to make something happen, regardless of what any program's desires are for building a schedule. There are bad teams willing to play teams that will obliterate them simply to get a payday; consequently, those same good teams may not be looking for a "test," they just may be looking for an easy W on the schedule. But you need two teams to make that work. If you aren't in a location at this level where you can easily manage travel, lodging, etc., it may be tougher to schedule the way you want to schedule. So you have to give and take some. There's not a perfect science to it.

Programs who are getting into the upper tier may be looking for marquee games to help grow their brand, or attract recruits looking to play the best programs. Players want to play in big games and on big stages. And sure, your response will be putting yourself in a position to win 30 games annually will allow those players to play on a big stage in the tournament, but the other types of games are attractive to recruits too. Do you honestly think that at the D1 level it's not a benefit in recruiting to say you'll play in the Maui Invitational, or a tip-off game on an aircraft carrier against a blue-blood? Stuff like that excites players and fans alike. You take the potential for a loss, sure. But those are good marketing and recruiting chips for your program.

Middle of the pack teams are going to have more difficulty getting games against other middle of the pack teams who are their equal, as strange as that sounds. To your logic, why would you schedule a team who can beat you? That's why you don't see Illinois and Vanderbilt, or Northwestern and UVA, scheduling non-conference games against one another in football. So those types of teams get stuck playing branch campuses or West Liberty on the road.

There's no science to it. And there's no guarantee it works out the way you want it to. It's just not as simple as you claim it is. Any coach may have his master plan for how he constructs his non-conference slate, but perhaps the real world doesn't allow him to schedule anything close to what he desires.

Very good analysis and description of some of the complexities.WLU wants to play good teams, but as you said, two parties are involved. WLU is playing good teams in Daytona this year and they lost a non-conf game last year.

[bballfan03]

My west ranking prediction as of now...

1. Cal U
2. IUP (I realize they've been abysmal to this point, however, they've played some good teams... theres not many of those good teams in the PSAC West)
3. UPJ
4. Gannon
5. Seton Hill
6. Rock
7. Hurst (given what ive seen thus far i cant see them beating Cal .. and likely a few other sweeps)
8. Clarion
9. Edinboro

[IUP24]

Clearly every program is different. "Sure" win to a 30 win team is quite different than that of a 10 win one. Thought everyone would realize that... guess not. Same with the definition of a tomato can. A tomato can to a 30 win team is quite different than one for a middle of the pack program. If you are a middle of the pack program, a tomato can looks a lot like a 10 win program...af you are a 30 win program, a tomato can includes the 10 win team, but can also include 15, 16 or even 18 win programs. The definition changes year to year and program to program.

You are missing the point entirely. You simply just believe that teams, your team in particular, should just schedule games that they will never lose.

It takes two to make something happen, regardless of what any program's desires are for building a schedule. There are bad teams willing to play teams that will obliterate them simply to get a payday; consequently, those same good teams may not be looking for a "test," they just may be looking for an easy W on the schedule. But you need two teams to make that work. If you aren't in a location at this level where you can easily manage travel, lodging, etc., it may be tougher to schedule the way you want to schedule. So you have to give and take some. There's not a perfect science to it.

Programs who are getting into the upper tier may be looking for marquee games to help grow their brand, or attract recruits looking to play the best programs. Players want to play in big games and on big stages. And sure, your response will be putting yourself in a position to win 30 games annually will allow those players to play on a big stage in the tournament, but the other types of games are attractive to recruits too. Do you honestly think that at the D1 level it's not a benefit in recruiting to say you'll play in the Maui Invitational, or a tip-off game on an aircraft carrier against a blue-blood? Stuff like that excites players and fans alike. You take the potential for a loss, sure. But those are good marketing and recruiting chips for your program.

Middle of the pack teams are going to have more difficulty getting games against other middle of the pack teams who are their equal, as strange as that sounds. To your logic, why would you schedule a team who can beat you? That's why you don't see Illinois and Vanderbilt, or Northwestern and UVA, scheduling non-conference games against one another in football. So those types of teams get stuck playing branch campuses or West Liberty on the road.

There's no science to it. And there's no guarantee it works out the way you want it to. It's just not as simple as you claim it is. Any coach may have his master plan for how he constructs his non-conference slate, but perhaps the real world doesn't allow him to schedule anything close to what he desires.

[Ship69]

Yes, they're viable as a bare bones operation - but only because West Chester covers some administrative functions at no cost.

I just don't see the vocational co-op experience like a Cooper Union being attractive to their core demographic given its location. There are too many high acceptance or low admissions threshold HBCU experiences in the region offering a more traditional college experience. It might work if they were trying to mimic the Drexel approach if they were in the city, maybe. But they're out in the extra lilywhite exurbs without ANYTHING for students within an easy walk. I still firmly believe that athletics will boost enrollment, campus life, and all sorts of external engagement - and offer additional financial aid for students. I honestly believe their current administration doesn't understand athletics enough to see its benefit. Plus, its an easier sell for a somewhat more traditional campus experience and a larger enrollment that it would attract.

I like Aaron Walton and their Dean of Students is a personal friend, but neither are higher ed guys. Aaron Walton was on the board at Highmark and PASSHE Board of Governors. That's his higher ed experience. Their Dean of Students was a pharma sales exec who retired early and ran a Black male mentorship program in Pittsburgh. Both are great people but sometimes can't imagine how financial decisions play out.

Their location and the fact that the PASSHE system as a whole is not as segregated as it once was works against their traditional role as an HBCU. When I went to Ship in the '60s I doubt we had 20 black kids on the entire campus. Most of the athletic teams in the conference were lily white (even Cheyney had two white starters on the basketball team and a white coach in the mid-'60s.). The last time I looked Ship had well over 600 minority students on campus now, and I know they're recruiting the Philadelphia area and other locations extensively to attract minority students. I'm sure that's ticked up a lot at the other PASSHE schools as well.

[Fightingscot82]

Yeah, I don't think we'll see Cheyney again as far as PSAC athletics. I also hope all the money thrown out there has made them viable. There are too many financial problems with the PASSHE system as a whole to support big leaks in the money pot much longer.

Yes, they're viable as a bare bones operation - but only because West Chester covers some administrative functions at no cost.

I just don't see the vocational co-op experience like a Cooper Union being attractive to their core demographic given its location. There are too many high acceptance or low admissions threshold HBCU experiences in the region offering a more traditional college experience. It might work if they were trying to mimic the Drexel approach if they were in the city, maybe. But they're out in the extra lilywhite exurbs without ANYTHING for students within an easy walk. I still firmly believe that athletics will boost enrollment, campus life, and all sorts of external engagement - and offer additional financial aid for students. I honestly believe their current administration doesn't understand athletics enough to see its benefit. Plus, its an easier sell for a somewhat more traditional campus experience and a larger enrollment that it would attract.

I like Aaron Walton and their Dean of Students is a personal friend, but neither are higher ed guys. Aaron Walton was on the board at Highmark and PASSHE Board of Governors. That's his higher ed experience. Their Dean of Students was a pharma sales exec who retired early and ran a Black male mentorship program in Pittsburgh. Both are great people but sometimes can't imagine how financial decisions play out.

[Ship69]

I believe competitive sports are being put out to pasture at Cheyney. Their athletic department has put out just seven stories since August, and one was a cancelation.

Years ago the state gave Cheyney over $40M to redo Cope Hall. The current administration doesn't want NCAA athletics and tried to have the state grant permission to repurpose the money for a different project. The state refused, so Cheyney adjusted and will instead build a new campus recreation center that will have indoor courts and an indoor grass field. It sounds like part of the project is also to put in an outdoor turf field and track - but to teach students facility management, not to rebirth Cheyney Wolves athletics. If the yuppies in the area can get over being on an HBCU campus with lots of Black kids around, that facility will be popular for youth campus & tournaments and generate money for the campus. It sounds like Cope Hall and O'Shields Stadium will be razed.

Yeah, I don't think we'll see Cheyney again as far as PSAC athletics. I also hope all the money thrown out there has made them viable. There are too many financial problems with the PASSHE system as a whole to support big leaks in the money pot much longer.

[Ship69]

The timing couldn’t have been better for Gannon to implement the WL style of play. The West is a mess and very winnable for them this year.

California looks pretty good. Outside of that, it appears to be uncertain. IUP, while still good enough to beat a lot of teams, does not seem to be at its usual level and Mercyhurst so far has definitely slipped (East Stroudsburg just routed the D'Youville team that upset Mercyhurst a short while back). Slippery Rock was crushed by Daemen (which is a good team), and UPJ is average to somewhat below average at best. In the East, East Stroud so far is playing up to their favored status. Ship and Kutztown are both rebuilding after extensive roster losses. West Chester and Shepherd, as seems to be the case with them lately, are erratic teams that have the talent to compete with anyone, but don't always play that way. It should be a competitive if not particularly powerful league this season.

[Columbuseer]

Regardless if Gannon wins this game or not, the one thing I was disappointed to see was how quickly Coach Fee strayed from his hockey line changes. The 2nd line played 3 minutes first half, didn't fare any differently than the first line, and that same 2nd line never came back in. He made some multi-player substitutions but also a bunch of single player subs too. It would seem this style of play is fueled by rested players and Lincoln punched through their defense many times, and Gannon players weren't getting back like they usually do.

Just think it would have been interesting to see how this true style play would have held up.

The hockey line changes at wlu were only added to the style around 2015, probably due to increase in quality depth. Nova SE does not do it as frequently as wlu - witness finals last year.
Perhaps Fee adjusted his sub pattern based on the matchups.

[Fightingscot82]

At one point they had two Hall of Fame coaches running their basketball programs at the same time. It's been a shame to watch the decline.

I believe competitive sports are being put out to pasture at Cheyney. Their athletic department has put out just seven stories since August, and one was a cancelation.

Years ago the state gave Cheyney over $40M to redo Cope Hall. The current administration doesn't want NCAA athletics and tried to have the state grant permission to repurpose the money for a different project. The state refused, so Cheyney adjusted and will instead build a new campus recreation center that will have indoor courts and an indoor grass field. It sounds like part of the project is also to put in an outdoor turf field and track - but to teach students facility management, not to rebirth Cheyney Wolves athletics. If the yuppies in the area can get over being on an HBCU campus with lots of Black kids around, that facility will be popular for youth campus & tournaments and generate money for the campus. It sounds like Cope Hall and O'Shields Stadium will be razed.

[Chuck Norris]

Harder for the hockey lines subs to hold up against the better teams. Not saying Lincoln is a great team either.

Ojamafo is incredibly good. Fee should send KJ a Christmas card for recruiting him. the three grad transfers are all solid players too.

Will be curious to see how the style holds up in the West. I could see them finishing anywhere from 1-5. It’s a really smart style to play if you are at a D2 with superior resources.

The timing couldn’t have been better for Gannon to implement the WL style of play. The West is a mess and very winnable for them this year.

[Ship69]

Yes the probation expired in 2019. Last year they at least kept stats, this year they aren't recording scores stats etc.

At one point they had two Hall of Fame coaches running their basketball programs at the same time. It's been a shame to watch the decline.

[bballfan03]

OK. They were put on probation about 10 years ago, dropped Division II athletics (and out of the PSAC) some years later) and really haven't come back post-Covid. I was wrong to say they were D3. They might as well be in effect as they haven't been giving scholarships. I knew they weren't affiliated. A lot of money has been put into that place to keep them afloat as is the case with some of the other PASSHE schools.

Yes the probation expired in 2019. Last year they at least kept stats, this year they aren't recording scores stats etc.

[Ship69]

Cheyney is an independent with no NCAA affiliation as they lost it when placed on probation. They can play whomever they want, but can't compete in any NCAA tournament.

OK. They were put on probation about 10 years ago, dropped Division II athletics (and out of the PSAC) some years later) and really haven't come back post-Covid. I was wrong to say they were D3. They might as well be in effect as they haven't been giving scholarships. I knew they weren't affiliated. A lot of money has been put into that place to keep them afloat as is the case with some of the other PASSHE schools.

[bballfan03]

They didn't drop their program, just went D3. They are on Ship's schedule as well, so count us up as pish posh I guess.

Cheyney is an independent with no NCAA affiliation as they lost it when placed on probation. They can play whomever they want, but can't compete in any NCAA tournament.

[bballfan03]

Looking at their schedule, i think Lincoln is the best team Gannon has played yet. Lost to ESU bt 7, beat Kutz by 14, lost at #25 Florida Southern by 12, lost to Cal by 1. Those are strong losses.