PSAC WEST

[Columbuseer]

It's just not as simple as many make it out to be. There's so many reasons why things happen the way they do.

I don't really care about losing a game to Kentucky or Gonzaga on an aircraft carrier. I can talk about that experience 50 years later if I played in that game. And if I'm a West Liberty player, if I get to go down to Daytona, Florida with my teammates for a few days, and we drop a game or two, so be it. 35 years from now, I'll remember the experience I had with my teammates on a unique road trip playing D2 basketball. Those are all recruiting and branding opportunities.

Players and coaches would be lying if they say that they don't want to have in season challenges like that. It has NOTHING to do with bettering your postseason position. Saying you're playing a bunch of branch campuses is no way to build a collegiate basketball schedule because you think that's the path to 30 wins.

Good points. Also, playing a good team can show players how far they must improve while it is early in the season, which could pay dividends in March.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Thanks. I was wondering why I didn't see him when they played Lincoln.

When he's back and up to speed ... that offense will be a real joy to play.

[Ship69]

My west ranking prediction as of now...

1. Cal U
2. IUP (I realize they've been abysmal to this point, however, they've played some good teams... theres not many of those good teams in the PSAC West)
3. UPJ
4. Gannon
5. Seton Hill
6. Rock
7. Hurst (given what ive seen thus far i cant see them beating Cal .. and likely a few other sweeps)
8. Clarion
9. Edinboro

I think Gannon, Seton Hill, and Slippery Rock might all be better than UPJ. UPJ had a good deal of trouble putting away Frostburg, which is not a very good squad this season. Of course we'll see before long.

[Ship69]

Cal isn't full strength yet. Cam Polak is an elite shooter and hasn't played yet this year (wrist).

Thanks. I was wondering why I didn't see him when they played Lincoln.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

My west ranking prediction as of now...

1. Cal U
2. IUP (I realize they've been abysmal to this point, however, they've played some good teams... theres not many of those good teams in the PSAC West)
3. UPJ
4. Gannon
5. Seton Hill
6. Rock
7. Hurst (given what ive seen thus far i cant see them beating Cal .. and likely a few other sweeps)
8. Clarion
9. Edinboro

Cal isn't full strength yet. Cam Polak is an elite shooter and hasn't played yet this year (wrist).

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Jamie Dixon was a master at it with Pitt when he was coaching there.

He had the right mix of scheduling one neutral site game against a big time opponent (think the memorable Duke game in MSG). He always had a home and home with another traditionally strong program (they did that with Wisconsin and Auburn before in the Dixon era). And then he did well to schedule middle of the road teams from strong mid-major conferences. At the time, RPI was the big measurable. Those type of games were huge RPI boosts for Pitt as the season progressed. Typically those schools from those mid-major leagues posed enough of a challenge that his team had to actually play and compete, but they weren't necessarily games they were threatened with a loss. And because those schools were from better mid-major leagues, the top 1-2 would be ranked at some point, and the way in which all the RPIs were calculated back then, it would effectively boost Pitt's RPI as the teams that they played early on also saw their RPI number increase as they entered their conference season. Combined with the strength of the old Big East, Pitt ended every season with a top 5 RPI in the country.

He was a master at the schedule making game.

I loved Dixon
... Rght up until the day the Golden Panthers thought he hit his peak. Remember that group called all the shots back then behind the scenes.

[IUP24]

UPJ has it all figured out. They just make the half hour trip to IUP for two weekend tournaments. Four non-conference games 30 miles away. Then they play a fifth game at the KCAC against IUP ... and typically a sixth game at IUP in the conference tournament.

Jamie Dixon was a master at it with Pitt when he was coaching there.

He had the right mix of scheduling one neutral site game against a big time opponent (think the memorable Duke game in MSG). He always had a home and home with another traditionally strong program (they did that with Wisconsin and Auburn before in the Dixon era). And then he did well to schedule middle of the road teams from strong mid-major conferences. At the time, RPI was the big measurable. Those type of games were huge RPI boosts for Pitt as the season progressed. Typically those schools from those mid-major leagues posed enough of a challenge that his team had to actually play and compete, but they weren't necessarily games they were threatened with a loss. And because those schools were from better mid-major leagues, the top 1-2 would be ranked at some point, and the way in which all the RPIs were calculated back then, it would effectively boost Pitt's RPI as the teams that they played early on also saw their RPI number increase as they entered their conference season. Combined with the strength of the old Big East, Pitt ended every season with a top 5 RPI in the country.

He was a master at the schedule making game.

[IUP24]

Very good analysis and description of some of the complexities. WLU wants to play good teams, but as you said, two parties are involved. WLU is playing good teams in Daytona this year and they lost a non-conf game last year.

It's just not as simple as many make it out to be. There's so many reasons why things happen the way they do.

I don't really care about losing a game to Kentucky or Gonzaga on an aircraft carrier. I can talk about that experience 50 years later if I played in that game. And if I'm a West Liberty player, if I get to go down to Daytona, Florida with my teammates for a few days, and we drop a game or two, so be it. 35 years from now, I'll remember the experience I had with my teammates on a unique road trip playing D2 basketball. Those are all recruiting and branding opportunities.

Players and coaches would be lying if they say that they don't want to have in season challenges like that. It has NOTHING to do with bettering your postseason position. Saying you're playing a bunch of branch campuses is no way to build a collegiate basketball schedule because you think that's the path to 30 wins.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Very good analysis and description of some of the complexities.WLU wants to play good teams, but as you said, two parties are involved. WLU is playing good teams in Daytona this year and they lost a non-conf game last year.

UPJ has it all figured out. They just make the half hour trip to IUP for two weekend tournaments. Four non-conference games 30 miles away. Then they play a fifth game at the KCAC against IUP ... and typically a sixth game at IUP in the conference tournament.

[Columbuseer]

You are missing the point entirely. You simply just believe that teams, your team in particular, should just schedule games that they will never lose.

It takes two to make something happen, regardless of what any program's desires are for building a schedule. There are bad teams willing to play teams that will obliterate them simply to get a payday; consequently, those same good teams may not be looking for a "test," they just may be looking for an easy W on the schedule. But you need two teams to make that work. If you aren't in a location at this level where you can easily manage travel, lodging, etc., it may be tougher to schedule the way you want to schedule. So you have to give and take some. There's not a perfect science to it.

Programs who are getting into the upper tier may be looking for marquee games to help grow their brand, or attract recruits looking to play the best programs. Players want to play in big games and on big stages. And sure, your response will be putting yourself in a position to win 30 games annually will allow those players to play on a big stage in the tournament, but the other types of games are attractive to recruits too. Do you honestly think that at the D1 level it's not a benefit in recruiting to say you'll play in the Maui Invitational, or a tip-off game on an aircraft carrier against a blue-blood? Stuff like that excites players and fans alike. You take the potential for a loss, sure. But those are good marketing and recruiting chips for your program.

Middle of the pack teams are going to have more difficulty getting games against other middle of the pack teams who are their equal, as strange as that sounds. To your logic, why would you schedule a team who can beat you? That's why you don't see Illinois and Vanderbilt, or Northwestern and UVA, scheduling non-conference games against one another in football. So those types of teams get stuck playing branch campuses or West Liberty on the road.

There's no science to it. And there's no guarantee it works out the way you want it to. It's just not as simple as you claim it is. Any coach may have his master plan for how he constructs his non-conference slate, but perhaps the real world doesn't allow him to schedule anything close to what he desires.

Very good analysis and description of some of the complexities.WLU wants to play good teams, but as you said, two parties are involved. WLU is playing good teams in Daytona this year and they lost a non-conf game last year.

[bballfan03]

My west ranking prediction as of now...

1. Cal U
2. IUP (I realize they've been abysmal to this point, however, they've played some good teams... theres not many of those good teams in the PSAC West)
3. UPJ
4. Gannon
5. Seton Hill
6. Rock
7. Hurst (given what ive seen thus far i cant see them beating Cal .. and likely a few other sweeps)
8. Clarion
9. Edinboro

[IUP24]

Clearly every program is different. "Sure" win to a 30 win team is quite different than that of a 10 win one. Thought everyone would realize that... guess not. Same with the definition of a tomato can. A tomato can to a 30 win team is quite different than one for a middle of the pack program. If you are a middle of the pack program, a tomato can looks a lot like a 10 win program...af you are a 30 win program, a tomato can includes the 10 win team, but can also include 15, 16 or even 18 win programs. The definition changes year to year and program to program.

You are missing the point entirely. You simply just believe that teams, your team in particular, should just schedule games that they will never lose.

It takes two to make something happen, regardless of what any program's desires are for building a schedule. There are bad teams willing to play teams that will obliterate them simply to get a payday; consequently, those same good teams may not be looking for a "test," they just may be looking for an easy W on the schedule. But you need two teams to make that work. If you aren't in a location at this level where you can easily manage travel, lodging, etc., it may be tougher to schedule the way you want to schedule. So you have to give and take some. There's not a perfect science to it.

Programs who are getting into the upper tier may be looking for marquee games to help grow their brand, or attract recruits looking to play the best programs. Players want to play in big games and on big stages. And sure, your response will be putting yourself in a position to win 30 games annually will allow those players to play on a big stage in the tournament, but the other types of games are attractive to recruits too. Do you honestly think that at the D1 level it's not a benefit in recruiting to say you'll play in the Maui Invitational, or a tip-off game on an aircraft carrier against a blue-blood? Stuff like that excites players and fans alike. You take the potential for a loss, sure. But those are good marketing and recruiting chips for your program.

Middle of the pack teams are going to have more difficulty getting games against other middle of the pack teams who are their equal, as strange as that sounds. To your logic, why would you schedule a team who can beat you? That's why you don't see Illinois and Vanderbilt, or Northwestern and UVA, scheduling non-conference games against one another in football. So those types of teams get stuck playing branch campuses or West Liberty on the road.

There's no science to it. And there's no guarantee it works out the way you want it to. It's just not as simple as you claim it is. Any coach may have his master plan for how he constructs his non-conference slate, but perhaps the real world doesn't allow him to schedule anything close to what he desires.

[Ship69]

Yes, they're viable as a bare bones operation - but only because West Chester covers some administrative functions at no cost.

I just don't see the vocational co-op experience like a Cooper Union being attractive to their core demographic given its location. There are too many high acceptance or low admissions threshold HBCU experiences in the region offering a more traditional college experience. It might work if they were trying to mimic the Drexel approach if they were in the city, maybe. But they're out in the extra lilywhite exurbs without ANYTHING for students within an easy walk. I still firmly believe that athletics will boost enrollment, campus life, and all sorts of external engagement - and offer additional financial aid for students. I honestly believe their current administration doesn't understand athletics enough to see its benefit. Plus, its an easier sell for a somewhat more traditional campus experience and a larger enrollment that it would attract.

I like Aaron Walton and their Dean of Students is a personal friend, but neither are higher ed guys. Aaron Walton was on the board at Highmark and PASSHE Board of Governors. That's his higher ed experience. Their Dean of Students was a pharma sales exec who retired early and ran a Black male mentorship program in Pittsburgh. Both are great people but sometimes can't imagine how financial decisions play out.

Their location and the fact that the PASSHE system as a whole is not as segregated as it once was works against their traditional role as an HBCU. When I went to Ship in the '60s I doubt we had 20 black kids on the entire campus. Most of the athletic teams in the conference were lily white (even Cheyney had two white starters on the basketball team and a white coach in the mid-'60s.). The last time I looked Ship had well over 600 minority students on campus now, and I know they're recruiting the Philadelphia area and other locations extensively to attract minority students. I'm sure that's ticked up a lot at the other PASSHE schools as well.

[Fightingscot82]

Yeah, I don't think we'll see Cheyney again as far as PSAC athletics. I also hope all the money thrown out there has made them viable. There are too many financial problems with the PASSHE system as a whole to support big leaks in the money pot much longer.

Yes, they're viable as a bare bones operation - but only because West Chester covers some administrative functions at no cost.

I just don't see the vocational co-op experience like a Cooper Union being attractive to their core demographic given its location. There are too many high acceptance or low admissions threshold HBCU experiences in the region offering a more traditional college experience. It might work if they were trying to mimic the Drexel approach if they were in the city, maybe. But they're out in the extra lilywhite exurbs without ANYTHING for students within an easy walk. I still firmly believe that athletics will boost enrollment, campus life, and all sorts of external engagement - and offer additional financial aid for students. I honestly believe their current administration doesn't understand athletics enough to see its benefit. Plus, its an easier sell for a somewhat more traditional campus experience and a larger enrollment that it would attract.

I like Aaron Walton and their Dean of Students is a personal friend, but neither are higher ed guys. Aaron Walton was on the board at Highmark and PASSHE Board of Governors. That's his higher ed experience. Their Dean of Students was a pharma sales exec who retired early and ran a Black male mentorship program in Pittsburgh. Both are great people but sometimes can't imagine how financial decisions play out.

[Ship69]

I believe competitive sports are being put out to pasture at Cheyney. Their athletic department has put out just seven stories since August, and one was a cancelation.

Years ago the state gave Cheyney over $40M to redo Cope Hall. The current administration doesn't want NCAA athletics and tried to have the state grant permission to repurpose the money for a different project. The state refused, so Cheyney adjusted and will instead build a new campus recreation center that will have indoor courts and an indoor grass field. It sounds like part of the project is also to put in an outdoor turf field and track - but to teach students facility management, not to rebirth Cheyney Wolves athletics. If the yuppies in the area can get over being on an HBCU campus with lots of Black kids around, that facility will be popular for youth campus & tournaments and generate money for the campus. It sounds like Cope Hall and O'Shields Stadium will be razed.

Yeah, I don't think we'll see Cheyney again as far as PSAC athletics. I also hope all the money thrown out there has made them viable. There are too many financial problems with the PASSHE system as a whole to support big leaks in the money pot much longer.