New WJU MBB HC

[Columbuseer]

Re: New WJU MBB HC

... If they claim that the deal that they signed was based on malfienace on WU's part and try to have a court declare it null and void, the court would almost always declair the entire agreement null and void. Rarely do courts cherry pick through contracts and abrogate one part and not another. So if the diocese did do this and assuming they won the court is probably going to go back to the situation on the day before the contract...WU will be on the hook to pay the diocese $25M (which it doesn't have) and the diocese would have to give the land and facilities back to WU. If WU then did go out of business, the diocese would take their place in line with the other unpaid creditors.

https://contracts.uslegal.com/breach...ract-remedies/

[CALUPA69]

Re: New WJU MBB HC

https://contracts.uslegal.com/breach...ract-remedies/

HUH ????

[Columbuseer]

Re: New WJU MBB HC

HUH ????

Oops - I somehow posted the incorrect link. I regret the error.


It's a slow summer day for basketball news... To be clear, I don't think the diocese will take any legal action. But I was curious about whether they could have legal recourse and breach of contract in general - as I said it's a slow day...LOL

However, Here is a relevant section buried deep within the erroneous link I posted:

Parties that are induced to enter into contracts by mistake, fraud, undue influence, or duress may seek to have the contract set aside or have the terms of the contract rewritten to do justice in the case.
----------------------------------------------------------
Here are some of the options available to a court on a breach of contract suit from the following link:
https://www.legalmatch.com/law-libra...-contract.html

"... Other types of options excerpts....
Contract rescission cancels the contract, which allows the parties to form a new contract that better suits the needs and desires of both parties.

With contract reformation, the contract is rewritten (either in part or in whole)

[boatcapt]

Re: New WJU MBB HC

Oops - I somehow posted the incorrect link. I regret the error.


It's a slow summer day for basketball news... To be clear, I don't think the diocese will take any legal action. But I was curious about whether they could have legal recourse and breach of contract in general - as I said it's a slow day...LOL

However, Here is a relevant section buried deep within the erroneous link I posted:

Parties that are induced to enter into contracts by mistake, fraud, undue influence, or duress may seek to have the contract set aside or have the terms of the contract rewritten to do justice in the case.
----------------------------------------------------------
Here are some of the options available to a court on a breach of contract suit from the following link:
https://www.legalmatch.com/law-libra...-contract.html

"... Other types of options excerpts....
Contract rescission cancels the contract, which allows the parties to form a new contract that better suits the needs and desires of both parties.

With contract reformation, the contract is rewritten (either in part or in whole)

For the sake of argument, what would be "better terms?" The diocese already owns the primary asset in the form of the property and facilities. Let's assume for a moment that the court said you can keep the property and we are ordering WU to give the $25M back. Obviously WU doesn't have it and immediately would go out of business. As they have no assets beyond basketballs, footballs and the furniture in the classrooms, the diocese would probably net zero from that course. Or let's assume the courts said the only thing we are modifying is the dioceses ability to up the rent from $2500. This would probably drive WU to close immediately which again net the diocese nothing. In fact, both those options would make the diocese worse off in that either would probably drive WU out of business which would cause the $2500 rent the diocese is receiving to go away.

[CALUPA69]

Re: New WJU MBB HC

For the sake of argument, what would be "better terms?" The diocese already owns the primary asset in the form of the property and facilities. Let's assume for a moment that the court said you can keep the property and we are ordering WU to give the $25M back. Obviously WU doesn't have it and immediately would go out of business. As they have no assets beyond basketballs, footballs and the furniture in the classrooms, the diocese would probably net zero from that course. Or let's assume the courts said the only thing we are modifying is the dioceses ability to up the rent from $2500. This would probably drive WU to close immediately which again net the diocese nothing. In fact, both those options would make the diocese worse off in that either would probably drive WU out of business which would cause the $2500 rent the diocese is receiving to go away.

Wouldn't the rental income to WVU be significantly higher ? Why not maximize an asset ? Maybe even a rent to buy deal.

[Columbuseer]

Re: New WJU MBB HC

For the sake of argument, what would be "better terms?" The diocese already owns the primary asset in the form of the property and facilities. Let's assume for a moment that the court said you can keep the property and we are ordering WU to give the $25M back. Obviously WU doesn't have it and immediately would go out of business. As they have no assets beyond basketballs, footballs and the furniture in the classrooms, the diocese would probably net zero from that course. Or let's assume the courts said the only thing we are modifying is the dioceses ability to up the rent from $2500. This would probably drive WU to close immediately which again net the diocese nothing. In fact, both those options would make the diocese worse off in that either would probably drive WU out of business which would cause the $2500 rent the diocese is receiving to go away.

Yeh, it's a slow day. I think we agree that we are just discussing hypothetical scenarios, for I don't think the diocese will do anything prior to WU closing. Could it happen within 3 years? No one knows until enrollment numbers are shared for 2019-2020.

In return for ownership of the 65 acre campus and buildings, the diocese redeemed all of the outstanding debt and bonds so money is already gone, as you said. See story at https://www.americamagazine.org/poli...nancial-future

[boatcapt]

Re: New WJU MBB HC

Yeh, it's a slow day. I think we agree that we are just discussing hypothetical scenarios, for I don't think the diocese will do anything prior to WU closing. Could it happen within 3 years? No one knows until enrollment numbers are shared for 2019-2020.

In return for ownership of the 65 acre campus and buildings, the diocese redeemed all of the outstanding debt and bonds so money is already gone, as you said. See story at https://www.americamagazine.org/poli...nancial-future

Not saying WU is in a good place and they may yet close. But compared to other schools, I think they are probably in a pretty good position to rebound. They effectively pay no rent and I assume (you know what they say about that!!) they have little or no debt. In business terms, they are in a cash flow problem where they weren't taking in enough $ in tuition (probably because of massive tuition discounts they had offered) to pay the workers (professors and support staff) necessary to educate and support them. In the old days of business terms WU is "streamlining"...retiring "low margin" products (i.e. students not paying full tuition) and the skilled workers (professors) who produced (educated) them in favor of a smaller number of "higher margin" products (students paying full tuition) being produced by a smaller number of lower paid workers (adjunct/part-time teachers).

At least, that seems to be the theory.

Concerning how small WU can get and remain viable, I note there are a number (several dozen?) liberal arts colleges with enrolment below 500...some WELL below! Not saying WU would be able to prosper at say 400 for an extended period but if they did get to that point and became profitable, why wouldn't they stay in business?

I've said all along it was my belief that WU was in the process of sheeding high cost programs, faculty and students in search of a point were the books balance. Once they find that point (assuming they do), the plan is to rebound by adding only profitable programs and students paying full tuition (i.e. NO DISCOUNT!!).

[Columbuseer]

Re: New WJU MBB HC

Not saying WU is in a good place and they may yet close. But compared to other schools, I think they are probably in a pretty good position to rebound. They effectively pay no rent and I assume (you know what they say about that!!) they have little or no debt. In business terms, they are in a cash flow problem where they weren't taking in enough $ in tuition (probably because of massive tuition discounts they had offered) to pay the workers (professors and support staff) necessary to educate and support them. In the old days of business terms WU is "streamlining"...retiring "low margin" products (i.e. students not paying full tuition) and the skilled workers (professors) who produced (educated) them in favor of a smaller number of "higher margin" products (students paying full tuition) being produced by a smaller number of lower paid workers (adjunct/part-time teachers).

At least, that seems to be the theory.

Concerning how small WU can get and remain viable, I note there are a number (several dozen?) liberal arts colleges with enrolment below 500...some WELL below! Not saying WU would be able to prosper at say 400 for an extended period but if they did get to that point and became profitable, why wouldn't they stay in business?

I've said all along it was my belief that WU was in the process of sheeding high cost programs, faculty and students in search of a point were the books balance. Once they find that point (assuming they do), the plan is to rebound by adding only profitable programs and students paying full tuition (i.e. NO DISCOUNT!!).

I think you accurately described their strategy.

The open question is whether they waited too long to respond to their financial issues and are they past the tipping point? Having only 7 undergraduate majors is a risk. Kids change majors frequently once they get to college, so the lack of options could be a risk. They seemed to select them based on potential customer demand, which was a good idea. Problem is they have little or no reputation in some of these fields, like nursing. Not 100% sure, but I think they graduated less than 10 students (correct me if I am wrong). I don't think you develop a reputation overnight. Often you have to lure renowned teachers from other schools and invest in state of the art labs, etc. to "grow" the program's reputation. Adjunct professor route is low cost but does not address this issue.

Have you found any D2 schools that have sports that have less than 700 students? I could not find any but it was not exhaustive.
Antioch college (Not D2) has 400 students but is on the verge of closing.

[CALUPA69]

Re: New WJU MBB HC

I think you accurately described their strategy.

The open question is whether they waited too long to respond to their financial issues and are they past the tipping point? Having only 7 undergraduate majors is a risk. Kids change majors frequently once they get to college, so the lack of options could be a risk. They seemed to select them based on potential customer demand, which was a good idea. Problem is they have little or no reputation in some of these fields, like nursing. Not 100% sure, but I think they graduated less than 10 students (correct me if I am wrong). I don't think you develop a reputation overnight. Often you have to lure renowned teachers from other schools and invest in state of the art labs, etc. to "grow" the program's reputation. Adjunct professor route is low cost but does not address this issue.

Have you found any D2 schools that have sports that have less than 700 students? I could not find any but it was not exhaustive.
Antioch college (Not D2) has 400 students but is on the verge of closing.

I can think of one that tried with sad results. CHEYNEY.

[Columbuseer]

Re: New WJU MBB HC

I can think of one that tried with sad results. CHEYNEY.

So sad. Enrollment plunged from 700+ to 469 in one year, in debt, down to 11 majors, dropping out of d2... once tipping point reached the spiral downward is hard to stop.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pen...tputType%3Damp

[boatcapt]

Re: New WJU MBB HC

I think you accurately described their strategy.

The open question is whether they waited too long to respond to their financial issues and are they past the tipping point? Having only 7 undergraduate majors is a risk. Kids change majors frequently once they get to college, so the lack of options could be a risk. They seemed to select them based on potential customer demand, which was a good idea. Problem is they have little or no reputation in some of these fields, like nursing. Not 100% sure, but I think they graduated less than 10 students (correct me if I am wrong). I don't think you develop a reputation overnight. Often you have to lure renowned teachers from other schools and invest in state of the art labs, etc. to "grow" the program's reputation. Adjunct professor route is low cost but does not address this issue.

Have you found any D2 schools that have sports that have less than 700 students? I could not find any but it was not exhaustive.
Antioch college (Not D2) has 400 students but is on the verge of closing.

DII programs with less than 700 undergrad students:

Holy Name CA reports 633 undergrad.

Kentucky Wesleyan reports 673 full time students.

Urbana reports 600+ undergrad resident enrolment.

Erskin College 575.

Ohio Valley University 386.

Less than 1000:

Alderson Broaddus University 981.

Lees McRae College 931.

St Augustine's University NC 971.

Lake Erie College 955.

Coker College 986.

Converse College 918.

LeMoyne-Owens College 896.

Davis & Elkins College 805.

Here's a question I have, there are any number of D3 programs (and more than a couple DII) that are capable of sustaining athletic programs at the NCAA level with very low enrollment. Why couldn't a school like, oh, I don't know, lets say Wheeling Jesuit, run its DII program like a D3 from a scholarship and budget standpoint? Yea, it probably wouldn't be pretty from a W/L standpoint but if the goal is to getting full tuition paying bodies, a way of doing this is to dangle the opportunity to play "scholarship level college sports" to HS students. Need an analog for a DII school doing just that? Look no further than Urbana which I note just added Women's Water Polo to it's list of DII sports. Add another $250,000 to Urbana's tuition bottom line!!

I can comment on Nursing and program reputation since I'm married to an RN who is now involved in hiring of nurses. Were an RN graduated from has about zero influence on getting a job. If WU decides to pump their nursing program up and graduate 100 nurses next year, hiring officials are not going to look at them and say "Yea, but she graduated from WU and I've never heard of them so no way we are going to hire her." What the hiring official will ask is - "Has she passed her boards?" Followed quickly by "When can she come in for an interview?"

[Columbuseer]

Re: New WJU MBB HC

DII programs with less than 700 undergrad students:

Holy Name CA reports 633 undergrad.

Kentucky Wesleyan reports 673 full time students.

Urbana reports 600+ undergrad resident enrolment.

Erskin College 575.

Ohio Valley University 386.

Less than 1000:

Alderson Broaddus University 981.

Lees McRae College 931.

St Augustine's University NC 971.

Lake Erie College 955.

Coker College 986.

Converse College 918.

LeMoyne-Owens College 896.

Davis & Elkins College 805.

Here's a question I have, there are any number of D3 programs (and more than a couple DII) that are capable of sustaining athletic programs at the NCAA level with very low enrollment. Why couldn't a school like, oh, I don't know, lets say Wheeling Jesuit, run its DII program like a D3 from a scholarship and budget standpoint? Yea, it probably wouldn't be pretty from a W/L standpoint but if the goal is to getting full tuition paying bodies, a way of doing this is to dangle the opportunity to play "scholarship level college sports" to HS students. Need an analog for a DII school doing just that? Look no further than Urbana which I note just added Women's Water Polo to it's list of DII sports. Add another $250,000 to Urbana's tuition bottom line!!

I can comment on Nursing and program reputation since I'm married to an RN who is now involved in hiring of nurses. Were an RN graduated from has about zero influence on getting a job. If WU decides to pump their nursing program up and graduate 100 nurses next year, hiring officials are not going to look at them and say "Yea, but she graduated from WU and I've never heard of them so no way we are going to hire her." What the hiring official will ask is - "Has she passed her boards?" Followed quickly by "When can she come in for an interview?"

Good Stats on the D2 Schools - Thanks (i could not find a site that had complete ranking).
There are about 310-316 schools in D2.
Of the 15 (incl WJU) schools listed, only 6 play football and the lowest enrollment is 673.
There are only 2 schools on your list that play football and are NOT in financial trouble (according to that guy's blog link in a earlier post).
However, even these schools are not on solid ground based on news stories.

1. Kentucky Wesleyan reports 673 full time students they have endowment of 37.5M. They recently went on probation due to financial concerns
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/...eges-probation

2. St Augustine's University NC 971. It has endowment of $18M. They were on probation in 2016 due to financial concerns.
https://www.newsobserver.com/news/lo...120021888.html

Median losses (revenue - expenses) for D2 football is about $1M a year. Low enrollment just can't sustain this expense.

IMHO, something along the lines you suggested should be considered as one of many options. IMHO, from a purely pragmatic view, I think WJU should consider moving immediately to D3. Cost of membership is much less. Just like when they chose the majors to keep, they need to look at their potential customers (students) and apply funds based on what is important to them - e.g., How many nurses play football or make a college decision based on the football team? They will need to convince generous alumni to continue support for any scenario they choose. Another option is to be bought by WVU.


Good info on the nursing and encouraging for WJU. Demand far exceeds supply at this time - they may be able to fend off the robotic automation in this field longer than most other professions. Been keeping a rough tally of jobs that will disappear in the next 10 years due to automation - well over 10 million and growing. Does not bode well for society to have an ever growing flood of unskilled, poor workers who will have no jobs prospects due to automation. I expect the runaway health care costs to result in more robotics here too. Robotic surgery is just the start. But that is another topic for another forum.

[boatcapt]

Re: New WJU MBB HC

Good Stats on the D2 Schools - Thanks (i could not find a site that had complete ranking).
There are about 310-316 schools in D2.
Of the 15 (incl WJU) schools listed, only 6 play football and the lowest enrollment is 673.
There are only 2 schools on your list that play football and are NOT in financial trouble (according to that guy's blog link in a earlier post).
However, even these schools are not on solid ground based on news stories.

1. Kentucky Wesleyan reports 673 full time students they have endowment of 37.5M. They recently went on probation due to financial concerns
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/...eges-probation

2. St Augustine's University NC 971. It has endowment of $18M. They were on probation in 2016 due to financial concerns.
https://www.newsobserver.com/news/lo...120021888.html

Median losses (revenue - expenses) for D2 football is about $1M a year. Low enrollment just can't sustain this expense.

IMHO, something along the lines you suggested should be considered as one of many options. IMHO, from a purely pragmatic view, I think WJU should consider moving immediately to D3. Cost of membership is much less. Just like when they chose the majors to keep, they need to look at their potential customers (students) and apply funds based on what is important to them - e.g., How many nurses play football or make a college decision based on the football team? They will need to convince generous alumni to continue support for any scenario they choose. Another option is to be bought by WVU.


Good info on the nursing and encouraging for WJU. Demand far exceeds supply at this time - they may be able to fend off the robotic automation in this field longer than most other professions. Been keeping a rough tally of jobs that will disappear in the next 10 years due to automation - well over 10 million and growing. Does not bode well for society to have an ever growing flood of unskilled, poor workers who will have no jobs prospects due to automation. I expect the runaway health care costs to result in more robotics here too. Robotic surgery is just the start. But that is another topic for another forum.

Small private colleges are in trouble at ALL levels (NCAA D1, DII and D3 and NAIA)!!

I don't think the "D3-like athletic model" is a long term solution. I see it as a short term solution which 1. allows WU to cut costs to the bone 2. allows them the keep enrolment from completely cratering and 3. keeps their membership alive at the level that they envision themselves at long term (DII with enrolment in the 1200-1500 range). If WU's goal was to be forever "small," they would have already begun the move to D3 as one of their steady state solutions.

Many people have said the "cost of D3 membership is less than DII" and I would tend to agree in principle. But no one has ever been able to show what the cost difference is. I'm talking about the actual cost (Membership dues to the NCAA to be a DII) and not the "optional" cost (for example 36 football schollys vice ZERO schollys). It's seems like its the same as the discussion about the cost of starting a football program...WILDLY differing opinions on the actual cost. Can anyone point me at something that shows the membership requirements with $ figures for DII and D3?

Concerning the revenue-expense and $1M loss you gave, I wonder if that figure includes the tuition and R&B that comes to the school from the players? Also wonder if that $1M loss factors in expenses that the school would have regardless of weather they had football or not (for example, stadium upkeep/maint)...these things aren't going away so is it fair to call them a football expense? But on the face of it, looking at an 85 player team at a private school with $20K tuition...That's $1.7M coming to the school in tuition alone...hard to believe that coaching salaries, travel and equipment costs $2.7 million a year (that's what it would take to run a $1M deficit...have to eat through the $1.7M tuition and go a further $1M into the red).

Ref Cheyneys enrolment decline. I wonder how many of those are because of athletes that left the school when Cheyney killed most of their sports offerings? In just football alone there were 84 players on Cheyney's final football roster. Near as I can figure, Cheyney's 2017 fall enrolment was 723 and 2018 fall enrolment was 469 for a decline of 254...the 84 football players alone represents 1/3 of that decline all by itself.

[Columbuseer]

Re: New WJU MBB HC

Small private colleges are in trouble at ALL levels (NCAA D1, DII and D3 and NAIA)!!

I don't think the "D3-like athletic model" is a long term solution. I see it as a short term solution which 1. allows WU to cut costs to the bone 2. allows them the keep enrolment from completely cratering and 3. keeps their membership alive at the level that they envision themselves at long term (DII with enrolment in the 1200-1500 range). If WU's goal was to be forever "small," they would have already begun the move to D3 as one of their steady state solutions.

Many people have said the "cost of D3 membership is less than DII" and I would tend to agree in principle. But no one has ever been able to show what the cost difference is. I'm talking about the actual cost (Membership dues to the NCAA to be a DII) and not the "optional" cost (for example 36 football schollys vice ZERO schollys). It's seems like its the same as the discussion about the cost of starting a football program...WILDLY differing opinions on the actual cost. Can anyone point me at something that shows the membership requirements with $ figures for DII and D3?

Concerning the revenue-expense and $1M loss you gave, I wonder if that figure includes the tuition and R&B that comes to the school from the players? Also wonder if that $1M loss factors in expenses that the school would have regardless of weather they had football or not (for example, stadium upkeep/maint)...these things aren't going away so is it fair to call them a football expense? But on the face of it, looking at an 85 player team at a private school with $20K tuition...That's $1.7M coming to the school in tuition alone...hard to believe that coaching salaries, travel and equipment costs $2.7 million a year (that's what it would take to run a $1M deficit...have to eat through the $1.7M tuition and go a further $1M into the red).

Ref Cheyneys enrolment decline. I wonder how many of those are because of athletes that left the school when Cheyney killed most of their sports offerings? In just football alone there were 84 players on Cheyney's final football roster. Near as I can figure, Cheyney's 2017 fall enrolment was 723 and 2018 fall enrolment was 469 for a decline of 254...the 84 football players alone represents 1/3 of that decline all by itself.

Good questions boat.
Here is link to d2 athletic costs done by ncaa. Maybe author can fill in details.
http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/...etics-expenses

I think everyone agrees that small is generally bad when it comes to enrollment regardless of division. It is amazing how few d1 schools are making money on athletics. Once regular students realize how much of their tuition is going to subsidize athletes and budgets primarily because of their skill in a game for goodness sakes there could be heck to pay!

Here are the links to req for d1, d2 and d3 for your reading enjoyment.
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/AMA/DII%20Me...II12012011.pdf

[Columbuseer]