New WJU MBB HC

[boatcapt]

Re: New WJU MBB HC

Good questions boat.
Here is link to d2 athletic costs done by ncaa. Maybe author can fill in details.
http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/...etics-expenses

I think everyone agrees that small is generally bad when it comes to enrollment regardless of division. It is amazing how few d1 schools are making money on athletics. Once regular students realize how much of their tuition is going to subsidize athletes and budgets primarily because of their skill in a game for goodness sakes there could be heck to pay!

Here are the links to req for d1, d2 and d3 for your reading enjoyment.
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/AMA/DII%20Me...II12012011.pdf

The 50%, 20 scolly, 250K are either ors...to qualify a school has to do one of the three. And I don't read were it says any specific number has to be in any particular sport. So conceivably a school could fund all 20 in women's sports and none in mens.

[boatcapt]

Re: New WJU MBB HC

So for WU to reclassify to D3 they would have to pay $39000 plus the $2000/yr annual dues while staying DII would cost them $14900/yr. Some quick math, the break even point is 3 years. By then I would hope the WU "issue" would be resolved!!

For reference, to become an NAIA member, WU would pay:

Application fee: $10000
Annual dues: $8300
Conference Annual Dues: $11,600 OR
Independent Annual Fee: $3500 plus $300 per sport

But NAIA schools are not required to give any scollys.

[Columbuseer]

Re: New WJU MBB HC

So for WU to reclassify to D3 they would have to pay $39000 plus the $2000/yr annual dues while staying DII would cost them $14900/yr. Some quick math, the break even point is 3 years. By then I would hope the WU "issue" would be resolved!!

Did not read it in detail - don't know if dropping down a level (D2 to D3) is a special case in terms of fee. since more strenuous vetting has already been done. Brevard college moving from D2 to D3, which they state is a 4 year process.
https://brevard.edu/college-announce...-division-iii/
https://www.transylvaniatimes.com/st...iii/22918.html
Articles highlight some of differences in D2 and D3 and challenges of competing at D2 with 50% scholarship funding.

Article below says small schools should drop football - states that up to $2500 per student in small school is going to fund athletic dept.
https://www.jamesgmartin.center/2015...ollege-sports/


FYI Another article on the financial pressure on athletic departments - UNC Pembroke is mentioned.
https://herosports.com/news/budget-i...broke-humboldt


Based on the artiicles above, IMHO if WJU wanted to increase their chances of survival, they should move to D3 and drop football ASAP. However, the biggest barrier would be to overcome reluctance of alumni and big donors and get them to agree that it is necessary to increase odds of survival.

A big source of money in the diocese to support WJU in the past was from a gift of Texas land in the early 1900s which happens to be loaded with oil. Now that there is a new sheriff in town, that pot of money, which miight have been available to fund WJU (maybe for football??? don't know) may have dried up as there is a new sheriff in town. My point is that the financial lifelines may have changed since these decisions on football were made two years ago. Just speculation.

[boatcapt]

Re: New WJU MBB HC

Woth noting. WU's stated tuition is $27000. To meet the $250K athletic assistance requirement to maintain DII membership, they would have to give 9.25 total schollys a minimum of 4.125 to be allocated to womens sports...I note that the maximum womens volleyball total is 4.25 scollys. I would assume that would be a likely place were these scollys would be spent. For the 4.125 for mens sports I would have thought a likely spot would be mens wrestling but that program seems to be in disaray so perhaps they are going to give 1/4 scollys to 16 football players and then another .125 scholly to a 17th!

[Columbuseer]

Re: New WJU MBB HC

FYI - Very interesting article with VP of Athletics of Pfeiffer College which moved from D2 to D3.
https://www.gofalconsports.com/gener...20170418li142v

Rather than Athletic scholarships being a benefit to enrollment, these scholarships were consuming most of the institutional aid that would have othewire been available for regular students!
-------- excerpt follows ---------------------

Budget is one factor in this decision. But in a way that would probably surprise a lot of people because switching to Division III won't actually save Pfeiffer money. What it does is allow us to allocate the same dollars in different ways across the institution. Right now, excellent student-athletes are recruited in accordance with Division II guidelines, with athletics scholarships that cover most or all of the cost of a Pfeiffer education. This consumes the majority of available institutional aid, leaving comparatively little for great students who are not athletes and deserve academic merit scholarships. This model, which has been in place for almost two decades, is simply no longer sustainable. In fact, we've learned from the NCAA that a number of Division II schools nationwide are considering a similar move because it's clear that building enrollment based on athletics no longer works. Brevard College, which is just south of Asheville, announced last spring that it has done so for reasons that are similar to Pfeiffer's.

[boatcapt]

Re: New WJU MBB HC

Did not read it in detail - don't know if dropping down a level (D2 to D3) is a special case in terms of fee. since more strenuous vetting has already been done. Brevard college moving from D2 to D3, which they state is a 4 year process.
https://brevard.edu/college-announce...-division-iii/
https://www.transylvaniatimes.com/st...iii/22918.html
Articles highlight some of differences in D2 and D3 and challenges of competing at D2 with 50% scholarship funding.

Article below says small schools should drop football - states that up to $2500 per student in small school is going to fund athletic dept.
https://www.jamesgmartin.center/2015...ollege-sports/


FYI Another article on the financial pressure on athletic departments - UNC Pembroke is mentioned.
https://herosports.com/news/budget-i...broke-humboldt


Based on the artiicles above, IMHO if WJU wanted to increase their chances of survival, they should move to D3 and drop football ASAP. However, the biggest barrier would be to overcome reluctance of alumni and big donors and get them to agree that it is necessary to increase odds of survival.

A big source of money in the diocese to support WJU in the past was from a gift of Texas land in the early 1900s which happens to be loaded with oil. Now that there is a new sheriff in town, that pot of money, which miight have been available to fund WJU (maybe for football??? don't know) may have dried up as there is a new sheriff in town. My point is that the financial lifelines may have changed since these decisions on football were made two years ago. Just speculation.

As Cheyney apparently showed, dropping football (among other sports) is a recipe for almost certainly lose 100 students. Giving that they are already hemroging students, do you really think they could endure losing another 100? Let's assume for a moment that somehow WU is funding all 36 football schollys, that would mean that 64 players are paying 100% of the $27,000 tuition which amounts to $1,728,000 that WU would lose by cutting the program. Obviously they are NOT funding 36 scollys so the loss in tuition revenue by cutting football could be as high as $2.7M. THAT would be a death blow!!!

[boatcapt]

Re: New WJU MBB HC

FYI - Very interesting article with VP of Athletics of Pfeiffer College which moved from D2 to D3.
https://www.gofalconsports.com/gener...20170418li142v

Rather than Athletic scholarships being a benefit to enrollment, these scholarships were consuming most of the institutional aid that would have othewire been available for regular students!
-------- excerpt follows ---------------------

Budget is one factor in this decision. But in a way that would probably surprise a lot of people because switching to Division III won't actually save Pfeiffer money. What it does is allow us to allocate the same dollars in different ways across the institution. Right now, excellent student-athletes are recruited in accordance with Division II guidelines, with athletics scholarships that cover most or all of the cost of a Pfeiffer education. This consumes the majority of available institutional aid, leaving comparatively little for great students who are not athletes and deserve academic merit scholarships. This model, which has been in place for almost two decades, is simply no longer sustainable. In fact, we've learned from the NCAA that a number of Division II schools nationwide are considering a similar move because it's clear that building enrollment based on athletics no longer works. Brevard College, which is just south of Asheville, announced last spring that it has done so for reasons that are similar to Pfeiffer's.

Academics hate athletic based scollys. No surprise there. I'm sure a case can, and probably has, been made that dropping athletics all together, even D3 athletics, would solve all the money problems of every college in the nation! Funny that academics never seem to be willing to do the cost analysis for underperforming academic programs that graduate single digits year after year. They also almost never seem to be willing to control their own salary costs to help save their schools!!

In Pfeiffers case, had to be able to fund the $16M Center for Advanced Clinical Simulation Education!!!!

[Columbuseer]

[boatcapt]

Re: New WJU MBB HC

Not surprizing that the AD agrees with the decision after it has been made. Doubt he is going to fall on his sword and say he disagrees with the decision made by the president. At least, not if he want's to keep his job!

Concerning the decision to move from DII to D3, I note that the new president came on board in July and by Sept had made the decision to drop them down a level. That's some pretty swift work and over the summer no less!!

I wonder what is the biggest driver to the sky rocketing cost of a college education? Is it athletic scholarships as it seems the academic side would have us believe? Is it being driven by salary increases for professors? Is it friviolous capital improvements? Or is it something else? I note in Pfeizzers case they didn't chose to give even a part of the "massive" savings they realized from dropping to D3 back to the students as a whole in the form of a tuition decrease...no, they kept the same tuition and chose to spend the savings on higher professor salaries and to fund part of a new $16M facility.

[Fightingscot82]

Re: New WJU MBB HC

As Cheyney apparently showed, dropping football (among other sports) is a recipe for almost certainly lose 100 students. Giving that they are already hemroging students, do you really think they could endure losing another 100? Let's assume for a moment that somehow WU is funding all 36 football schollys, that would mean that 64 players are paying 100% of the $27,000 tuition which amounts to $1,728,000 that WU would lose by cutting the program. Obviously they are NOT funding 36 scollys so the loss in tuition revenue by cutting football could be as high as $2.7M. THAT would be a death blow!!!

That's not how it works with scholarships and tuition.

[Fightingscot82]

Re: New WJU MBB HC

Academics hate athletic based scollys. No surprise there. I'm sure a case can, and probably has, been made that dropping athletics all together, even D3 athletics, would solve all the money problems of every college in the nation! Funny that academics never seem to be willing to do the cost analysis for underperforming academic programs that graduate single digits year after year. They also almost never seem to be willing to control their own salary costs to help save their schools!!

In Pfeiffers case, had to be able to fund the $16M Center for Advanced Clinical Simulation Education!!!!

Some academic departments are gen ed workhorses rather than degree awarders. At more focused schools this is always the case for humanities. And that absolutely impacts their ability to recruit faculty.

I've been to Pfeiffer. Drove down there to watch Edinboro take on IUP in the 2005 NCAA tournament. Very small private in rural NC.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: New WJU MBB HC

Some academic departments are gen ed workhorses rather than degree awarders. At more focused schools this is always the case for humanities. And that absolutely impacts their ability to recruit faculty.

I've been to Pfeiffer. Drove down there to watch Edinboro take on IUP in the 2005 NCAA tournament. Very small private in rural NC.

Pfeiffer actually played a couple basketball games in Indiana in the late 90s. Edwards would yap about how much it cost to get them up here.

[boatcapt]

Re: New WJU MBB HC

That's not how it works with scholarships and tuition.

I was talking generally about the non scolly players that were paying full tuition to go to a school and play. Cut the athletic program and these players will probably opt to go elsewhere taking their tuition $'s with them. In Cheyneys case I wonder how many former athletes chose to leave when Cheyney cut their sport? If 64 football players chose to leave, that's 64 full tuition paying students leaving which effects the schools bottom line.

[boatcapt]

Re: New WJU MBB HC

Some academic departments are gen ed workhorses rather than degree awarders. At more focused schools this is always the case for humanities. And that absolutely impacts their ability to recruit faculty.

I've been to Pfeiffer. Drove down there to watch Edinboro take on IUP in the 2005 NCAA tournament. Very small private in rural NC.

Operative words...some and general education. Everyone knows that there are general education requirements that everyone needs for a degree and there needs to be "departments" to manage those courses. What I'm talking about is the majors offered that have extremely low graduation numbers year after year. Never seems to be a peep from the academic side about doing away with these majors that are a "financial drain" on their college. In fact, if a new administration even ventures to take a look at which majors are actually producing revenue and which are not, academics howl about how it's not about dollars and cents...but when it comes to athletics, it IS all about dollars and cents.

[CALUPA69]

Re: New WJU MBB HC

https://wjucardinals.com/news/2019/7...all-coach.aspx

19-20 roster shows 15 players and no assistant.

Strange thing happened...the 19-20 roster has gone away. Can't say why this has happened but suspect it has to do with players transferring. Also a bit confused about the WJU name still being used since I thought the agreement was that it was to be dropped at the close of the 18-19 year. Anyone have info ?