Atlantic Region 2023 (Men's)

[IUP24]

This is the old Wheeling U approach. Their team picture always looked like a family reunion or something like that, with so many players. They always seemed to field a varsity and JV. NDC is taking a page out of that book.

As Ship69 referenced, some of the private schools (unfortunately, in my opinion) do this for the tuition dollars. I don't like the practice--it feels exploitative. You bring in a guy as a "preferred walk-on" who will never dress and never get a scholarship, and you ask him to open his wallet for tuition. It's a practice that trades on a kid's dream. A kid goes along with the pay-to-play because he just wants a chance: a chance to prove himself, a chance to fulfill his dream of becoming a college player, a chance to maybe earn a scholarship if he stays faithful to the program for long enough, etc. And all the while, he's paying full freight (or some financial aid granting institution, at least, is paying his freight . . . a freight he will likely have to pay back for a long time).

Something just feels a little icky about that to me.

Nobody holds a gun to your head and forces you to be a college athlete. If you sign up to be a preferred walk-on, using your example, you know the deal. The chance of you getting a scholarship probably aren't good. My junior and senior year of high school, I had plenty of colleges (mostly private schools and D3 schools) recruiting me to play my sport. I evaluated all facets of the process. I made the ultimate decision to simply go to school and just be a student. If you can afford to pay the private school tuition to be the 30th guy on the basketball roster, you are the one making that decision. Not anybody else. Athletics exist at many of these schools for the simple reason to generate tuition dollars.

[IUP24]

This is the old Wheeling U approach. Their team picture always looked like a family reunion or something like that, with so many players. They always seemed to field a varsity and JV. NDC is taking a page out of that book.

As Ship69 referenced, some of the private schools (unfortunately, in my opinion) do this for the tuition dollars. I don't like the practice--it feels exploitative. You bring in a guy as a "preferred walk-on" who will never dress and never get a scholarship, and you ask him to open his wallet for tuition. It's a practice that trades on a kid's dream. A kid goes along with the pay-to-play because he just wants a chance: a chance to prove himself, a chance to fulfill his dream of becoming a college player, a chance to maybe earn a scholarship if he stays faithful to the program for long enough, etc. And all the while, he's paying full freight (or some financial aid granting institution, at least, is paying his freight . . . a freight he will likely have to pay back for a long time).

Something just feels a little icky about that to me.

I thought more about this. The harder conversation (and this is not necessarily independent of what you are discussing here) is that more parents need to have difficult, adult conversations with their children who are 17-18 years old about college athletics and where they fit into it. I'm not trashing D3 athletics, or small D2 private schools, etc. I'm simply identifying that if you are playing at that level, the chances of you ever going anywhere are basically zero. I appreciate athletes playing "for the love of the game." If you want to point to the few examples of elite players from places like IUP or West Liberty going on to have nice careers overseas, I'll let you do that. But you know that's not reality for 99.9% of athletes at this level.

If you are offered a walk-on spot at NDC to play basketball and you are getting literally no scholarship money, that's awful parental advice to encourage your child to go and make that commitment. Playing a college sport is a massive time commitment. It takes away from your ability to experience other things as a college student. It could impact academic performance as well. And when we're talking about the level we're talking about, you can't just throw away the "school" part of the conversation. It's a hard conversation for the parent (because they probably want to see their child play college sports - perhaps as an ego thing for themselves some as well), but that's real parenting.

If a student athlete has an opportunity to play, it's up to them to decide if they want to pursue it. But their pursuit should first be to identify what they want to go to school for, and then find a place where they can have the opportunity to play the sport while pursuing their academics. If you have to change your academic pursuits solely because you are "chasing a dream," that's awful decision making. And if a parent doesn't step in, that's bad parenting.

[Columbuseer]

I thought more about this. The harder conversation (and this is not necessarily independent of what you are discussing here) is that more parents need to have difficult, adult conversations with their children who are 17-18 years old about college athletics and where they fit into it. I'm not trashing D3 athletics, or small D2 private schools, etc. I'm simply identifying that if you are playing at that level, the chances of you ever going anywhere are basically zero. I appreciate athletes playing "for the love of the game." If you want to point to the few examples of elite players from places like IUP or West Liberty going on to have nice careers overseas, I'll let you do that. But you know that's not reality for 99.9% of athletes at this level.

If you are offered a walk-on spot at NDC to play basketball and you are getting literally no scholarship money, that's awful parental advice to encourage your child to go and make that commitment. Playing a college sport is a massive time commitment. It takes away from your ability to experience other things as a college student. It could impact academic performance as well. And when we're talking about the level we're talking about, you can't just throw away the "school" part of the conversation. It's a hard conversation for the parent (because they probably want to see their child play college sports - perhaps as an ego thing for themselves some as well), but that's real parenting.

If a student athlete has an opportunity to play, it's up to them to decide if they want to pursue it. But their pursuit should first be to identify what they want to go to school for, and then find a place where they can have the opportunity to play the sport while pursuing their academics. If you have to change your academic pursuits solely because you are "chasing a dream," that's awful decision making. And if a parent doesn't step in, that's bad parenting.

Excellent points. I totally agree with you.

[Scrub]

I thought more about this. The harder conversation (and this is not necessarily independent of what you are discussing here) is that more parents need to have difficult, adult conversations with their children who are 17-18 years old about college athletics and where they fit into it. I'm not trashing D3 athletics, or small D2 private schools, etc. I'm simply identifying that if you are playing at that level, the chances of you ever going anywhere are basically zero. I appreciate athletes playing "for the love of the game." If you want to point to the few examples of elite players from places like IUP or West Liberty going on to have nice careers overseas, I'll let you do that. But you know that's not reality for 99.9% of athletes at this level.

If you are offered a walk-on spot at NDC to play basketball and you are getting literally no scholarship money, that's awful parental advice to encourage your child to go and make that commitment. Playing a college sport is a massive time commitment. It takes away from your ability to experience other things as a college student. It could impact academic performance as well. And when we're talking about the level we're talking about, you can't just throw away the "school" part of the conversation. It's a hard conversation for the parent (because they probably want to see their child play college sports - perhaps as an ego thing for themselves some as well), but that's real parenting.

If a student athlete has an opportunity to play, it's up to them to decide if they want to pursue it. But their pursuit should first be to identify what they want to go to school for, and then find a place where they can have the opportunity to play the sport while pursuing their academics. If you have to change your academic pursuits solely because you are "chasing a dream," that's awful decision making. And if a parent doesn't step in, that's bad parenting.

Spot on and well said. This is pretty much what I was getting at. That, and the idea that a school will gladly hold a hand out to grab the tuition check from the parents. And I do feel a little like a school should accept some responsibility for using "long-bench athletic rosters" as a recruitment strategy.

[Ship69]

Spot on and well said. This is pretty much what I was getting at. That, and the idea that a school will gladly hold a hand out to grab the tuition check from the parents. And I do feel a little like a school should accept some responsibility for using "long-bench athletic rosters" as a recruitment strategy.

Yeah, the whole "long-bench" thing sounds very high school to me. I was way down on the depth chart in ninth-grade basketball and played about 30 seconds for the year (leading me to the obvious conclusion that playing varsity basketball wasn't in my future). But neither my parents nor I had to spend money beyond the school taxes they already paid to find that out.

[bballfan03]

I thought more about this. The harder conversation (and this is not necessarily independent of what you are discussing here) is that more parents need to have difficult, adult conversations with their children who are 17-18 years old about college athletics and where they fit into it. I'm not trashing D3 athletics, or small D2 private schools, etc. I'm simply identifying that if you are playing at that level, the chances of you ever going anywhere are basically zero. I appreciate athletes playing "for the love of the game." If you want to point to the few examples of elite players from places like IUP or West Liberty going on to have nice careers overseas, I'll let you do that. But you know that's not reality for 99.9% of athletes at this level.

If you are offered a walk-on spot at NDC to play basketball and you are getting literally no scholarship money, that's awful parental advice to encourage your child to go and make that commitment. Playing a college sport is a massive time commitment. It takes away from your ability to experience other things as a college student. It could impact academic performance as well. And when we're talking about the level we're talking about, you can't just throw away the "school" part of the conversation. It's a hard conversation for the parent (because they probably want to see their child play college sports - perhaps as an ego thing for themselves some as well), but that's real parenting.

If a student athlete has an opportunity to play, it's up to them to decide if they want to pursue it. But their pursuit should first be to identify what they want to go to school for, and then find a place where they can have the opportunity to play the sport while pursuing their academics. If you have to change your academic pursuits solely because you are "chasing a dream," that's awful decision making. And if a parent doesn't step in, that's bad parenting.

I agree and disagree with this.

1. If the parents aren't financially being responsible for college, the college attendee should do as they wish.
1a. Being an adult is all about making decisions and a parent aiding that is just doing that person an injustice. If a college attendee think they have some chance at pros, and they're anything less than full scholarship, they probably shouldn't be in college... and the parents probably are the ones fueling their ludicrous dream.
1b. I paid my college all on my own... even though my FAFSA eligibility and loan determination all took into consideration my parents' income despite them not contributing. So my parents had absolutely no right to try to persuade me on anything, nor did they.

2. Any parent knows if you try to dissuade a kid from something, they're going to go even harder. The best way, in my opinion, is let them try it out. If they are putting all that work in year 1 and nothing to show for it... the ones that need to strictly focus in academics are going to quit anyways.

3. The kids playing for the love of the game should absolutely not be curved from being on the team. If a kid is content with putting all the work in for just the chance of getting garbage time or the slight chance of starting on senior night - and the coach allows it - they should do it. If they cant keep the grades up they should realize their love of the game is going to hinder their love of money in the adult world.. but if they can manage it - do it!

[bballfan03]

Yeah, the whole "long-bench" thing sounds very high school to me. I was way down on the depth chart in ninth-grade basketball and played about 30 seconds for the year (leading me to the obvious conclusion that playing varsity basketball wasn't in my future). But neither my parents nor I had to spend money beyond the school taxes they already paid to find that out.

My MS and HS coaches were very direct with me. My height and lack of dribbling creativity were not going to lead to many games on the court. I knew that, before they told me, and was fine with it because I wanted to be with my friends. The coaches still coached me as they would any other player and held me to the standards as everyone else. On freshman team, I think I played maybe 2 mins in 13 games, sophomore year on JV I played maybe 5 mins in 20 games. My junior year on JV I actually played a bit and started some games due to Varsity injuries and a lack of depth to begin with. Also at that time freshman weren't allowed to play anything other than freshman ball, if the school had a freshman team in the League. Now my senior year I had to be on Varsity and expected nothing. However, on my own during these years, I had been working on a quicker release knowing the only way I'd be able to do anything if I got on the court was if I could get rid of the ball quicker. 0 minutes in first so many games... due to injuries I started getting a few minutes and hit a 3 here and 3 there. My quicker release was definitely my aide. I started the last 13 games including our region championship and the schools only state playoff appearance. Still hold school record for 11 3s in a game and 7 3s in a playoff game.

I had no college aspirations for basketball- I just wanted to be with my friends. Well training on my own and sticking with it paid off. So i say if a kid is willing to put the time in - let them.

[WarriorVoice]

Latest Regional Poll is out...ESU goes from #5 to #2...

https://esuwarriors.com/news/2023/11...gion-poll.aspx

[IUP24]

I agree and disagree with this.

1. If the parents aren't financially being responsible for college, the college attendee should do as they wish.
1a. Being an adult is all about making decisions and a parent aiding that is just doing that person an injustice. If a college attendee think they have some chance at pros, and they're anything less than full scholarship, they probably shouldn't be in college... and the parents probably are the ones fueling their ludicrous dream.
1b. I paid my college all on my own... even though my FAFSA eligibility and loan determination all took into consideration my parents' income despite them not contributing. So my parents had absolutely no right to try to persuade me on anything, nor did they.

2. Any parent knows if you try to dissuade a kid from something, they're going to go even harder. The best way, in my opinion, is let them try it out. If they are putting all that work in year 1 and nothing to show for it... the ones that need to strictly focus in academics are going to quit anyways.

3. The kids playing for the love of the game should absolutely not be curved from being on the team. If a kid is content with putting all the work in for just the chance of getting garbage time or the slight chance of starting on senior night - and the coach allows it - they should do it. If they cant keep the grades up they should realize their love of the game is going to hinder their love of money in the adult world.. but if they can manage it - do it!

I'm admittedly not understanding the first half of this.

My overall point is that far too many high school athletes have delusions about what being a college athlete is all about. Once you drop down into "the bus leagues," as it's been called here before, it isn't a glamorous lifestyle. And especially when you get into the non-revenue sports, that's a different conversation altogether. Are the free hoodies and backpack with your number on it really worth it in the grand scheme of things? That's the root of the discussion pertaining to where this started related to Notre Dame's roster strategy. What's the academic draw at Notre Dame College?

I'm asking that rhetorically, but truly, I don't know that answer. You can get a business degree anywhere. You can get a marketing degree anywhere. Education degree, political science, etc. Those are the tuition check generators. Basic canned degrees that are legitimately the same at any school. But how many of the students on the NDC basketball roster should be at a different school currently, studying to be an engineer, and NOT playing basketball? Whether it's the parents pushing the student, whether it's the student trying to fulfill an ego, etc... At no point should playing a D2 or D3 sport, especially when you aren't on scholarship, be a driver to adjust your academic pursuit. And my overall point is that way too many parents allow that to happen.

If you want to play a college sport because you want to, by all means, go and do it. But at a certain point, your academic and personal success should be considered before the sport when picking a school and making that decision. If you can find a place that fits your academic interests, is a place that you are comfortable being for four years, and can also play a sport, then go for it. But adjusting the other items simply to play is a bad life-choice.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

I'm admittedly not understanding the first half of this.

My overall point is that far too many high school athletes have delusions about what being a college athlete is all about. Once you drop down into "the bus leagues," as it's been called here before, it isn't a glamorous lifestyle. And especially when you get into the non-revenue sports, that's a different conversation altogether. Are the free hoodies and backpack with your number on it really worth it in the grand scheme of things? That's the root of the discussion pertaining to where this started related to Notre Dame's roster strategy. What's the academic draw at Notre Dame College?

I'm asking that rhetorically, but truly, I don't know that answer. You can get a business degree anywhere. You can get a marketing degree anywhere. Education degree, political science, etc. Those are the tuition check generators. Basic canned degrees that are legitimately the same at any school. But how many of the students on the NDC basketball roster should be at a different school currently, studying to be an engineer, and NOT playing basketball? Whether it's the parents pushing the student, whether it's the student trying to fulfill an ego, etc... At no point should playing a D2 or D3 sport, especially when you aren't on scholarship, be a driver to adjust your academic pursuit. And my overall point is that way too many parents allow that to happen.

If you want to play a college sport because you want to, by all means, go and do it. But at a certain point, your academic and personal success should be considered before the sport when picking a school and making that decision. If you can find a place that fits your academic interests, is a place that you are comfortable being for four years, and can also play a sport, then go for it. But adjusting the other items simply to play is a bad life-choice.

Just pick something other than engineering. There may not be a more depressed, stressed and socially-awkward group of people in society today. I've worked hand-in-hand with them for 20+ years. Miserable bunch.

Those people go from looking 25 to 55 in about 5 years.

[Scrub]

My MS and HS coaches were very direct with me. My height and lack of dribbling creativity were not going to lead to many games on the court. I knew that, before they told me, and was fine with it because I wanted to be with my friends. The coaches still coached me as they would any other player and held me to the standards as everyone else. On freshman team, I think I played maybe 2 mins in 13 games, sophomore year on JV I played maybe 5 mins in 20 games. My junior year on JV I actually played a bit and started some games due to Varsity injuries and a lack of depth to begin with. Also at that time freshman weren't allowed to play anything other than freshman ball, if the school had a freshman team in the League. Now my senior year I had to be on Varsity and expected nothing. However, on my own during these years, I had been working on a quicker release knowing the only way I'd be able to do anything if I got on the court was if I could get rid of the ball quicker. 0 minutes in first so many games... due to injuries I started getting a few minutes and hit a 3 here and 3 there. My quicker release was definitely my aide. I started the last 13 games including our region championship and the schools only state playoff appearance. Still hold school record for 11 3s in a game and 7 3s in a playoff game.

I had no college aspirations for basketball- I just wanted to be with my friends. Well training on my own and sticking with it paid off. So i say if a kid is willing to put the time in - let them.

But all of what you describe is exactly what HIGH SCHOOL sports are all about (being with friends, learning the lessons, putting in the work, etc.). Those are terrific reasons to stay with a sport in high school. But College is a whole different animal. And unless you were attending a place like Cathedral Prep solely to play ball, you weren't paying an arm and a leg for the privilege of being on a court with your friends. I think IUP24 is right about the priority issue. If you're a 35th man on a college basketball team, I sure hope you chose your school based on academics and overall "fit" as opposed to dreams of 2 minutes of playing time on Senior night 4 years from now.

[Ship69]

My MS and HS coaches were very direct with me. My height and lack of dribbling creativity were not going to lead to many games on the court. I knew that, before they told me, and was fine with it because I wanted to be with my friends. The coaches still coached me as they would any other player and held me to the standards as everyone else. On freshman team, I think I played maybe 2 mins in 13 games, sophomore year on JV I played maybe 5 mins in 20 games. My junior year on JV I actually played a bit and started some games due to Varsity injuries and a lack of depth to begin with. Also at that time freshman weren't allowed to play anything other than freshman ball, if the school had a freshman team in the League. Now my senior year I had to be on Varsity and expected nothing. However, on my own during these years, I had been working on a quicker release knowing the only way I'd be able to do anything if I got on the court was if I could get rid of the ball quicker. 0 minutes in first so many games... due to injuries I started getting a few minutes and hit a 3 here and 3 there. My quicker release was definitely my aide. I started the last 13 games including our region championship and the schools only state playoff appearance. Still hold school record for 11 3s in a game and 7 3s in a playoff game.

I had no college aspirations for basketball- I just wanted to be with my friends. Well training on my own and sticking with it paid off. So i say if a kid is willing to put the time in - let them.

There was no chance I was going to play ball after freshman year. I just wasn't very good and wouldn't have survived the cuts. I was at a huge high school that had five boys' teams (freshman A & B, sophomores, junior varsity and varsity). The school had a big main gym and four auxiliary gyms, so all five teams could practice at once. (You could do this back when girls' sports were not a thing.) So sophomore year I was student manager of the basketball team at a new school (the high school had been split into two schools). Moved out to Pa.. after sophomore year and that was the end of me and HS basketball.

[bballfan03]

But all of what you describe is exactly what HIGH SCHOOL sports are all about (being with friends, learning the lessons, putting in the work, etc.). Those are terrific reasons to stay with a sport in high school. But College is a whole different animal. And unless you were attending a place like Cathedral Prep solely to play ball, you weren't paying an arm and a leg for the privilege of being on a court with your friends. I think IUP24 is right about the priority issue. If you're a 35th man on a college basketball team, I sure hope you chose your school based on academics and overall "fit" as opposed to dreams of 2 minutes of playing time on Senior night 4 years from now.

I get it, but I still think even if you're going to be 50th in depth.. as long as it's known upfront and the grades are maintained.. why not do it? You still see going to form new bonds, practice with good athletes, possibly travel to new places etc. I just think if the academics are maintained - do what you want.

[bballfan03]

I'm admittedly not understanding the first half of this.

My overall point is that far too many high school athletes have delusions about what being a college athlete is all about. Once you drop down into "the bus leagues," as it's been called here before, it isn't a glamorous lifestyle. And especially when you get into the non-revenue sports, that's a different conversation altogether. Are the free hoodies and backpack with your number on it really worth it in the grand scheme of things? That's the root of the discussion pertaining to where this started related to Notre Dame's roster strategy. What's the academic draw at Notre Dame College?

I'm asking that rhetorically, but truly, I don't know that answer. You can get a business degree anywhere. You can get a marketing degree anywhere. Education degree, political science, etc. Those are the tuition check generators. Basic canned degrees that are legitimately the same at any school. But how many of the students on the NDC basketball roster should be at a different school currently, studying to be an engineer, and NOT playing basketball? Whether it's the parents pushing the student, whether it's the student trying to fulfill an ego, etc... At no point should playing a D2 or D3 sport, especially when you aren't on scholarship, be a driver to adjust your academic pursuit. And my overall point is that way too many parents allow that to happen.

If you want to play a college sport because you want to, by all means, go and do it. But at a certain point, your academic and personal success should be considered before the sport when picking a school and making that decision. If you can find a place that fits your academic interests, is a place that you are comfortable being for four years, and can also play a sport, then go for it. But adjusting the other items simply to play is a bad life-choice.

Yes!! I agree with all that! Major should not be determined by where you play. You should most definitely do WHAT YOU WANT as far as major and go to the school that is the best fit for that. My point was after all that, if a kid wants to be a part of a team and can be, while maintaing good grades, then they should regardless of what their role is on the team.

[IUP24]

Yes!! I agree with all that! Major should not be determined by where you play. You should most definitely do WHAT YOU WANT as far as major and go to the school that is the best fit for that. My point was after all that, if a kid wants to be a part of a team and can be, while maintaing good grades, then they should regardless of what their role is on the team.

Sure, that's completely up to them. I'm going to reference something you said earlier to wrap up my thoughts on this matter...

"If the parents aren't financially being responsible for college, the college attendee should do as they wish."

My assumption there is that you are saying that if a student is paying their own way for college, they should make their own decisions. And yes, I agree. However, them making their own decisions doesn't necessarily mean they are making a good one or the one that is most responsible.

Making a good decision is determining that you aren't going to play your sport professionally, identifying that you can get a quality education in your chosen field of study at a an in-state public or state university, and ultimately deciding to do attend the latter and just be a student. Making a bad decision is paying an arm and a leg to be a down the liner on some sports team, while going to school for something you could have studied for a price tag that is 40-50k cheaper on an annual basis elsewhere.

Making the best decision is identifying if you want to go to college in the first place. Going to community college for 1-2 years while taking gen ed requirements for a far cheaper price, and then deciding to enroll in a state or public school if you decide that's the route you'd like to go. That's financial responsibility and making adult decisions. After 17-18 years old, life can't be about chasing your athletic dreams anymore. So when I talk about parental advising... That's what I'm talking about.