Video: Should Division II Overhaul the Playoff System? - with Mike Racy

[Matt Witwicki]

So you assume but we’ll never know because team from the MIAA won’t travel east. So the regional format stays the same. I don’t give a damn that teams from the MIAA miss the playoffs when they are the 4th or 5th place team in a conference they have never won. Boo Friggen Hoo.

When NWMO or Pitt beat IUP in Indiana, PA, then we can talk.

As for IUP vs Shepherd, you will notice they played twice and had a split.

The MIAA needs to fix its regular season schedule setup before the commissioner can talk about anything else. SILO schedules don’t prove anything outside of that conference.

I don't have a dog in the fight here with the PSAC vs the MIAA....as that's somehow become the discussion here. That said, the MIAA scheduling should be fixed going forward as they are done playing silo scheduling..as is the NSIC. These changes alone will give the the midwest teams more good data points to determine a true SOS for them not hindered by the previous silo format they both had. I would've loved to see more games between the MIAA and the NSIC but the MIAA and the Lincoln situation came up a fair amount later in the process than the Upper Iowa one did for the NSIC..thusly the NSIC was already well into scheduling their open dates and were typically scheduling a 2 game home/away in the process.

My view on the Mike Racy idea is trying to have the best tournament possible = finding a way to arrive at the best 28 or 32 squads, giving every conference champ (15 currently) an auto-bid..so winning your conference has real meaning..but also having some use of historical reference to help shape the field of teams and ranking of them. Having a true top 4, and having them each play in a different bracket makes more sense to me...and would allow us to see the top 4 (or something close) make the semis and provide us better games at the end. I'm more pushing towards getting rid of the regions all-together than Mike is..but overall I think we share a common vision for making the tourney better.

[Wallst]

So you assume but we’ll never know because team from the MIAA won’t travel east. So the regional format stays the same. I don’t give a damn that teams from the MIAA miss the playoffs when they are the 4th or 5th place team in a conference they have never won. Boo Friggen Hoo.

When NWMO or Pitt beat IUP in Indiana, PA, then we can talk.

As for IUP vs Shepherd, you will notice they played twice and had a split.

The MIAA needs to fix its regular season schedule setup before the commissioner can talk about anything else. SILO schedules don’t prove anything outside of that conference.

My error. I should have said when it matterred Sheperd beat IUP by 35 before they got their doors blown off in the semifinals.

playoff realignment isnt about getting the 5th place MIAA or GLIAC team in. It's about getting the 2 best teams to the finals or at least 3 out of 4 into the semifinals. Right now that does not occur.

[IUPNation]

I don't have a dog in the fight here with the PSAC vs the MIAA....as that's somehow become the discussion here. That said, the MIAA scheduling should be fixed going forward as they are done playing silo scheduling..as is the NSIC. These changes alone will give the the midwest teams more good data points to determine a true SOS for them not hindered by the previous silo format they both had. I would've loved to see more games between the MIAA and the NSIC but the MIAA and the Lincoln situation came up a fair amount later in the process than the Upper Iowa one did for the NSIC..thusly the NSIC was already well into scheduling their open dates and were typically scheduling a 2 game home/away in the process.

My view on the Mike Racy idea is trying to have the best tournament possible = finding a way to arrive at the best 28 or 32 squads, giving every conference champ (15 currently) an auto-bid..so winning your conference has real meaning..but also having some use of historical reference to help shape the field of teams and ranking of them. Having a true top 4, and having them each play in a different bracket makes more sense to me...and would allow us to see the top 4 (or something close) make the semis and provide us better games at the end. I'm more pushing towards getting rid of the regions all-together than Mike is..but overall I think we share a common vision for making the tourney better.

I don’t think any conference should get more than 2 teams into the playoffs. The only reason the Pee Sack gets 3 and 4 in is because the other conferences in Region 1 wind up with too many 3 loss teams and we have too many teams Im compared to them. But the third team probably isn’t that good to get the bid. We do have a conference title game…I wish everyone else did too. That would sort some teams out.

If you did the top four teams and seeded them in regions..fine but the actual final four semi final games should be at neutral sites. The same teams would never play road games and is that going to be fair? If IUP is 13-0 and NWMO is 13-0 and they meet in the semifinal every year there is no way we get the home game. Ever. NWMO will just always be assumed to be better and will never leave marysville.

That’s my biggest sticking point. In this “fixing” the playoffs the haves will get even a bigger advantage to the point why even have playoffs. Just pick the same 4-6 teams every year and be done with it. I like that D1 plays their semis in a bowl game…

[IUPNation]

My error. I should have said when it matterred Sheperd beat IUP by 35 before they got their doors blown off in the semifinals.

playoff realignment isnt about getting the 5th place MIAA or GLIAC team in. It's about getting the 2 best teams to the finals or at least 3 out of 4 into the semifinals. Right now that does not occur.

The first game was the Pee Sack Championship Game. So yeah that game mattered too. But thanks for playing.

All I read is Midwest entitlement in these posts.

[RedFromMI]

I have seen this kind of objection for years across most sports in DII - dissatisfaction of the regional model because in some sports there are regions somewhat stronger than others. But DII has only a small fraction of the big NCAA revenue stream - March Madness TV money. Under 5 percent of that revenue stream goes to DII to run everything, including their championships.

So the regional models (which do vary somewhat in practice for those sports which are not completely widespread like basketball, for example) are the compromise that both helps the schools limit their travel costs, and help keep the championship costs down as well by allowing for less travel in early rounds.

Until you solve the cost issue, by proposing an alternative that is not more expensive to run, and make the system seem fairest to the largest majority of schools, you will not see much of a change.

I'll give you an example. In the years before 2000, when men's lacrosse in DII ran championships without a regional model (and had a playoff system of a SINGLE game due to the small number of schools sponsoring lax at that time) no team below the Mason Dixon line had a chance of getting into the championship game. When the powers at the top of DII forced that single game to have a representative from two regions (North vs. South) the complaints were vehement that the South team that earned the right to that single playoff championship game would not be competitive at all.

That South team - Limestone won by two goals. That both shut up the talk quite a bit, and forced changes where the championship for DII men's lax went immediately to a four team playoff, and then to three regions with a four team playoff and back to two when the playoff was boosted to 8 teams. But the growth in the playoff system was fueled by the increase in the number of programs sponsoring the sport (less than 40 in those early years, but now close to 80 teams).

[Wallst]

The first game was the Pee Sack Championship Game. So yeah that game mattered too. But thanks for playing.

All I read is Midwest entitlement in these posts.

Coming from east coast elitist who think the United States ends somewhere between Pittsburgh PA and Columbus Ohio, and refer to us entitled folks as flyover states.

Dang so you won the conference championship and then got your ass kicked by 35 what 3 weeks later? That's harsh. At least you caught lightning in the bottle the first game.

[GorillaTeacher]

I have seen this kind of objection for years across most sports in DII - dissatisfaction of the regional model because in some sports there are regions somewhat stronger than others. But DII has only a small fraction of the big NCAA revenue stream - March Madness TV money. Under 5 percent of that revenue stream goes to DII to run everything, including their championships.

So the regional models (which do vary somewhat in practice for those sports which are not completely widespread like basketball, for example) are the compromise that both helps the schools limit their travel costs, and help keep the championship costs down as well by allowing for less travel in early rounds.

Until you solve the cost issue, by proposing an alternative that is not more expensive to run, and make the system seem fairest to the largest majority of schools, you will not see much of a change.

I'll give you an example. In the years before 2000, when men's lacrosse in DII ran championships without a regional model (and had a playoff system of a SINGLE game due to the small number of schools sponsoring lax at that time) no team below the Mason Dixon line had a chance of getting into the championship game. When the powers at the top of DII forced that single game to have a representative from two regions (North vs. South) the complaints were vehement that the South team that earned the right to that single playoff championship game would not be competitive at all.

That South team - Limestone won by two goals. That both shut up the talk quite a bit, and forced changes where the championship for DII men's lax went immediately to a four team playoff, and then to three regions with a four team playoff and back to two when the playoff was boosted to 8 teams. But the growth in the playoff system was fueled by the increase in the number of programs sponsoring the sport (less than 40 in those early years, but now close to 80 teams).

I think it has been demonstrated that a fairer system does exist without increasing cost any significant amount.

Racy even discussed that it is more about how the funds are allocated not the amount of funds. And if that means he gets less money to run his office from the NCAA, so be it.

[Brandon]

The same teams would never play road games and is that going to be fair?

If IUP is 13-0 and NWMO is 13-0 and they meet in the semifinal every year there is no way we get the home game.

Fair is a poor choice of words, but how is it fair to require teams to travel to a region they consistently beat?

It would seem that West Virginia would be the state that would complain, since a team from WV has advanced out of the region the last two years.

A team from Pennsylvania hosted a semifinal game in 2019 and 2017. The PA team lost 58-15 in 2019 and 27-17 in 2017.

I'm familiar with your nonsensical method of arguing, but it was time to bring some sanity to this thread.

[Predatory Primates]

How often do 3 to 5 loss teams make the playoffs?

I just don’t buy that narrative that your conference is that powerful beyond the two teams that have won almost every MIAA conference title for the last 30 years. If they can’t win the MIAA why do they belong in the playoffs?

Under the current system they would not only make the playoffs, but get a free ride to the semis.

You make the point for me. The PSAC most likely hasn't ever produced a team that could win the MIAA, yet SR1 gets Carte Blanche to 2 of the top 8 and one of the top 4 spots every year.(One or 2 in the early 90s may have had a shot.)

I don't even begrudge them some playoff spots, or think stronger conferences should get those spots. I hope something is done to ensure that doesn't happen, in fact. Heck, the MIAA was one of the worst D2 conferences until the 90s when they were able to improve and prove it on the field in the playoffs. I always want those opportunities to be there.

I just think the regional thing needs to go to avoid giving mediocre teams an express pass to the Quarters, semis, and even finals.

I do agree that the silo stuff is garbage, and only now that it's dead do I think Racy can even talk. I would honestly be fine if being in a true silo excluded teams from the playoffs altogether. That would change the tune of lazy administrators at places like NW.

[Predatory Primates]

playoff realignment isnt about getting the 5th place MIAA or GLIAC team in. It's about getting the 2 best teams to the finals or at least 3 out of 4 into the semifinals. Right now that does not occur.

Dang. I just wrote a wall of text when I could have just given this a +1

[Predatory Primates]

The sad thing is the MIAA is a little down right now. NW, ESU and Pitt had no offense when it counted. Washburn had no defense, ever. MW is way down. UNK was decent, but had a super player at QB to carry them, and is now looking at a whole new staff and system.. MW is down. UCO and MSSU had even less offense than Pitt and NW. Hays had no defense, and is so down that the coach ran everyone off and is ready to start over. Central is just plain bad.

I'll be interested to see what happens with at least a few OOC games mixed in next year.

[IUPNation]

Coming from east coast elitist who think the United States ends somewhere between Pittsburgh PA and Columbus Ohio, and refer to us entitled folks as flyover states.

Dang so you won the conference championship and then got your ass kicked by 35 what 3 weeks later? That's harsh. At least you caught lightning in the bottle the first game.

It is not my fault the Northeast remains the most important region of the country. It just is.

IUP lasted a week longer than Fake Pittsburg(h) State.

[GorillaTeacher]

It is not my fault the Northeast remains the most important region of the country. It just is.

IUP lasted a week longer than Fake Pittsburg(h) State.

Because each region is guaranteed a 2 spots in each quarter final.

congrats, you were second best out of the 7 worst teams of the field.

[IUPNation]

Fair is a poor choice of words, but how is it fair to require teams to travel to a region they consistently beat?

I'm talking about the regular season too. Why can't your team...the richest or almost the richest program in D2....not look to travel to PA? I mean if we are worried about giving the student athletes a better experience...why not get to travel to parts of the country they have never been to. I guess not.

I

t would seem that West Virginia would be the state that would complain, since a team from WV has advanced out of the region the last two years.

Yes...as a member of the Pennsylvania State Athletic Conference and not the West Virginia centric Mountain East. Shepherd is closer to several Pee Sack schools in distance than almost every MEC school in West Virginia.

A team from Pennsylvania hosted a semifinal game in 2019 and 2017. The PA team lost 58-15 in 2019 and 27-17 in 2017.

Slimey Pebble was overrated in 2019 and IUP fought back from a 24-0 deficit to get it to 24-17 in the 4th...so it wasn't some blowout and had Max Redfield not been hurt the week before...maybe it never gets to 24-0. However, West Flori-duh did come to Indiana and won and they deserved to advance that year to the finals and I have a lot of respect for their program. GSC schools have traveled north...just can't understand why it's impossible for the Mighty MIAA to travel east for a regular season game.

I'm familiar with your nonsensical method of arguing, but it was time to bring some sanity to this thread.

It's not nonsensical...you just don't like that I see this as nothing more to make it the NWMO, Pitt State, Ferris Bueller, Grand Valley, Valdosta State, Delta State, West Florida playoffs every year. Even if you did invite us from the D2 peasantry...we would never even get a shot to host many playoff games even if we were just as good. I see this as the haves trying to set the rules for everyone else. I mean...D1 only invited four teams to the dance and the National Title game wound up taking place in the Peach Bowl and not in the actual final. The D1 final was far more uncompetitive than the D2 final. The FCS final wasn't particularly close either but it was between teams from the same conference and that is really want most of you want. I don't see that as particularly good for growing D2 and generating interest in the eastern half of the division if schools from the same conference make the finals every year. I know when it's been two SEC schools in the D1 finals I'd rather watch paint dry....

[IUPNation]

Under the current system they would not only make the playoffs, but get a free ride to the semis.

The only three loss team from our area that ever made the semi's with 3 losses has to be the 1999 IUP team that lost by 8 points to NWMO in Marysville (where else).

You make the point for me. The PSAC most likely hasn't ever produced a team that could win the MIAA, yet SR1 gets Carte Blanche to 2 of the top 8 and one of the top 4 spots every year.(One or 2 in the early 90s may have had a shot.)

Try to mask your condescension better. Eighty percent of the schools in the MIAA haven't produced teams that could the MIAA either. It's mostly the NW Show with Pitt getting a turn every now and again. Why should any team past those two even get a playoff spot when they can't win their own conference?

I don't even begrudge them some playoff spots, or think stronger conferences should get those spots. I hope something is done to ensure that doesn't happen, in fact. Heck, the MIAA was one of the worst D2 conferences until the 90s when they were able to improve and prove it on the field in the playoffs. I always want those opportunities to be there.

I just think the regional thing needs to go to avoid giving mediocre teams an express pass to the Quarters, semis, and even finals.

There are only 6-8 really strong programs in D2. Everyone else is mediocre by your standard.

I do agree that the silo stuff is garbage, and only now that it's dead do I think Racy can even talk. I would honestly be fine if being in a true silo excluded teams from the playoffs altogether. That would change the tune of lazy administrators at places like NW.

So when is Pitt State coming to play in Indiana during the regular season. The team will even get to see the real Pittsburgh on the way to IUP.