Video: Should Division II Overhaul the Playoff System? - with Mike Racy

[Predatory Primates]

I've seen evidence of that too sure. There are teams every year in every region that fit that profile and they typically get blown out in the first round unless they "luck out" and are forced to play a team they competed with in conference in the first round.

Who do you feel was snubbed out of the playoff field this year?

If a guy named reload asks,, I didn't say this,, but ESU comes to mind from the MIAA. Their defense wasn't too far behind that of Pitt and NW this season, and their O was probably the better of those 3 teams. They could have beaten a lot of the playoff teams, imo.

I watched every MIAA game this year, so I didn't pay much attention to the rest of the Countr, but I imagine several teams were in that same boat.

[Inkblot]

I'm fiddling with a wins-above-bubble type of system... this is what I got for 13 at-large spots (assuming Wayne State gets the NSIC auto bid):

1. Ferris State
2. West Florida
3. Davenport
4. Minnesota State
5. Shepherd
6. Limestone
7. Wingate
8. West Georgia
9. Virginia Union
10. Northwest Missouri State
11. Saginaw Valley State
12. Harding
13. Truman

[Ram040506]

I'm not singling out the NE, but over the last 20 years or so, it's not uncommon to see playoff teams that would be middle of the pack at best in a power conference, and not unheard of to see a po team that would only win 2 to 4 games in a power conference.

Look at UNK for example. They went from getting a 1st round bye while playing in the RMAC in 2011 to going 3-8 in the MIAA in 2012.

Truman struggled mightily near the bottom of the MIAA for a long time, but started making the playoffs right away in the GLVC. I'm sure there is similar evidence amongst the other power conferences.

Because of that, I pretty strongly disagree that the rest of the playoff field is on pretty similar footing. If they are, then clearly the selection process is super broken.

I've seen evidence of that too sure. There are teams every year in every region that fit that profile and they typically get blown out in the first round unless they "luck out" and are forced to play a team they competed with in conference in the first round.

Who do you feel was snubbed out of the playoff field this year?

[GorillaTeacher]

Then demand they switch regions instead of coming for the Northeast. Why shouldn’t YOUR conference be put in with one of them. Aren’t you just having it easy in Region 4. The Northern Sun is SILO and doesn’t even play a conference championship game when it could but somehow our region is the problem?

You cannot simply objectively look at the results from the playoffs the last several years and not see a difference. There is being and advocate, and then there is being a leach. Every region shouldn't be guaranteed to be the final 2 of the final 8 teams playing. An effort should be made to get the best 8 teams, regardless of region, conference to be the last 8 teams playing.

[Predatory Primates]

100% Also, why continue to reward mediocrity? I don't want to hear excuses for the mediocrity, and that it's not fair. Not fair is continuing to reward teams that aren't very good. There are clearly regions that the current process over values, and are rewarded with trips to the quarters because someone has to win battles of mediocre teams. I get it's hard to evaluate conferences at times without many OOC games, but let's not pretend that the change from year to year is substantial. It takes years for shifts in conference power to happen, yet some want to have this blank slate every year that ignorantly pretends that the conferences are on equal ground because you can't look at last year, because it's not relevant this year. Maybe what the weaker regions need is to know that they aren't going to get their quota of spots in the playoffs, that they actually have to earn those spots. Maybe that will encourage them to overcome some of the challenges they face. Even if it doesn't, better teams will be rewarded with a playoff bracket that is more fair. Fair isn't treating the playoff bracket like charity, fair is getting teams in and seeded in a way that represents what reasonable people believe their ability to be. Here is what I would trade in exchange.. I would grant conferences AQ spots, 1 per conference, but give them no guaranteed seed, no guaranteed home game, nothing like that. You get 1 team in for based on the conferences criteria for determining conference champ, and after that, the teams need to earn a spot in the playoffs.

While a whole conference is slower to shift, a single team can definitely do so in a year. It is important that there is still an opportunity for that to happen, and a way to make sure it is rewarded.

[jimbo slice]

I'm not singling out the NE, but over the last 20 years or so, it's not uncommon to see playoff teams that would be middle of the pack at best in a power conference, and not unheard of to see a po team that would only win 2 to 4 games in a power conference.

Look at UNK for example. They went from getting a 1st round bye while playing in the RMAC in 2011 to going 3-8 in the MIAA in 2012.

Truman struggled mightily near the bottom of the MIAA for a long time, but started making the playoffs right away in the GLVC. I'm sure there is similar evidence amongst the other power conferences.

Because of that, I pretty strongly disagree that the rest of the playoff field is on pretty similar footing. If they are, then clearly the selection process is super broken.

Lindenwood as well. 2018 4-8 in MIAA

2019 9-4 with wins against
Midwestern state at #16
Truman #24
u of Indy at #8
Ouachita in the playoffs at #5

then prison raped in the second round by #10 NWSU 63-7

[IUPNation]

Why continue to reward the top 2 squads in SR1 with an automatic trip into the final 8 if they aren’t truly among the best 8 teams in D2?

In your format above NW at GV and Pitt at Ferris continues to happen in the 2nd round. (That’s what we are trying to get away from since they are clearly some of the best teams in D2 in 2022)

Then demand they switch regions instead of coming for the Northeast. Why shouldn’t YOUR conference be put in with one of them. Aren’t you just having it easy in Region 4. The Northern Sun is SILO and doesn’t even play a conference championship game when it could but somehow our region is the problem?

[Predatory Primates]

I think this argument has met the end point. Some are arguing what the ruling might ultimately be politically speaking and you seem to be arguing for what you believe to be the only way it should be. I agree with you mostly. Region 1 hasn't earned 25% of the entire bracket, but I think some are underselling that the entirety of the region is garbage. I am definitely Biased and I do believe that Region 1 wouldn't just lose every single playoff game they played if paired outside their "region."

It's been beat to hell, but there is a top 4-6 teams and then everyone else, IMO, is on pretty similar footing after that.

I'm not singling out the NE, but over the last 20 years or so, it's not uncommon to see playoff teams that would be middle of the pack at best in a power conference, and not unheard of to see a po team that would only win 2 to 4 games in a power conference.

Look at UNK for example. They went from getting a 1st round bye while playing in the RMAC in 2011 to going 3-8 in the MIAA in 2012.

Truman struggled mightily near the bottom of the MIAA for a long time, but started making the playoffs right away in the GLVC. I'm sure there is similar evidence amongst the other power conferences.

Because of that, I pretty strongly disagree that the rest of the playoff field is on pretty similar footing. If they are, then clearly the selection process is super broken.

[EastStroud13]

Here's my stab at what I think a realistic immediate step would be. Playoff selection is the exact same as it currently is. Seed teams 1-8, with each SR getting at least 1 seed. Seeded teams placed in SR quadrants as close as is applicable. Any unseeded teams in their SR's top 4 were kept in their SR, and unseeded teams outside their SR's top 4 were fluid and could be moved to other SR's.

It's not perfect. I think there's room to improve the distribution of teams across the SR3 and SR4 quadrants if more teams could be flexed out of region (for example, NWMSU swapping in for Bemidji gets rid of a conference rematch). But as a first step, I think it represents an improvement for the "competitiveness" crowd without completely alienating the "regionality" crowd. Because, clearly, no solution is going to completely please everyone.

Sorry, not sure why the image is so blurry... something about the upload I guess.

[Ram040506]

100% Also, why continue to reward mediocrity? I don't want to hear excuses for the mediocrity, and that it's not fair. Not fair is continuing to reward teams that aren't very good. There are clearly regions that the current process over values, and are rewarded with trips to the quarters because someone has to win battles of mediocre teams. I get it's hard to evaluate conferences at times without many OOC games, but let's not pretend that the change from year to year is substantial. It takes years for shifts in conference power to happen, yet some want to have this blank slate every year that ignorantly pretends that the conferences are on equal ground because you can't look at last year, because it's not relevant this year. Maybe what the weaker regions need is to know that they aren't going to get their quota of spots in the playoffs, that they actually have to earn those spots. Maybe that will encourage them to overcome some of the challenges they face. Even if it doesn't, better teams will be rewarded with a playoff bracket that is more fair. Fair isn't treating the playoff bracket like charity, fair is getting teams in and seeded in a way that represents what reasonable people believe their ability to be. Here is what I would trade in exchange.. I would grant conferences AQ spots, 1 per conference, but give them no guaranteed seed, no guaranteed home game, nothing like that. You get 1 team in for based on the conferences criteria for determining conference champ, and after that, the teams need to earn a spot in the playoffs.

I think this argument has met the end point. Some are arguing what the ruling might ultimately be politically speaking and you seem to be arguing for what you believe to be the only way it should be. I agree with you mostly. Region 1 hasn't earned 25% of the entire bracket, but I think some are underselling that the entirety of the region is garbage. I am definitely Biased and I do believe that Region 1 wouldn't just lose every single playoff game they played if paired outside their "region."

It's been beat to hell, but there is a top 4-6 teams and then everyone else, IMO, is on pretty similar footing after that.

[WBChargerDad]

Why continue to reward the top 2 squads in SR1 with an automatic trip into the final 8 if they aren’t truly among the best 8 teams in D2?

In your format above NW at GV and Pitt at Ferris continues to happen in the 2nd round. (That’s what we are trying to get away from since they are clearly some of the best teams in D2 in 2022)

100% Also, why continue to reward mediocrity? I don't want to hear excuses for the mediocrity, and that it's not fair. Not fair is continuing to reward teams that aren't very good. There are clearly regions that the current process over values, and are rewarded with trips to the quarters because someone has to win battles of mediocre teams. I get it's hard to evaluate conferences at times without many OOC games, but let's not pretend that the change from year to year is substantial. It takes years for shifts in conference power to happen, yet some want to have this blank slate every year that ignorantly pretends that the conferences are on equal ground because you can't look at last year, because it's not relevant this year. Maybe what the weaker regions need is to know that they aren't going to get their quota of spots in the playoffs, that they actually have to earn those spots. Maybe that will encourage them to overcome some of the challenges they face. Even if it doesn't, better teams will be rewarded with a playoff bracket that is more fair. Fair isn't treating the playoff bracket like charity, fair is getting teams in and seeded in a way that represents what reasonable people believe their ability to be. Here is what I would trade in exchange.. I would grant conferences AQ spots, 1 per conference, but give them no guaranteed seed, no guaranteed home game, nothing like that. You get 1 team in for based on the conferences criteria for determining conference champ, and after that, the teams need to earn a spot in the playoffs.

[Matt Witwicki]

I think he's joking Witt. We hear so much about how terrible our program is from some people. So, whenever a GV fan brings it up, we bring up the 2015 semifinal game.

Gotcha. My bad.

FWIW..I think an unbeaten PSAC team would be in a FCS top 8, like IUP in 2022 (I’d they hadn’t lost to Gannon at the end of the season). It would kinda depend on the year. In 2021 an unbeaten Kutztown or Shepherd would’ve been ahead of an unbeaten (D2) Bowie squad.

Keep in mind in each of the two FCS simulations here there were 4 PSAC teams and 3 PSAC teams selected from ‘21 to ‘22. One more than actual made the tourney. So it’s not like they are getting excluded by any means, it would simply being a matter or not facing only SR1 teams come the second round of the tournament.

[Ram040506]

The Rams lost midseason to Kutztown and came into the dance with 1 loss.

I meant more the automatic W for GV in the bracket. Bad attempt at humor!

[Matt Witwicki]

I think the idea of a Final 8 coming out of regions and not playing regional finals but getting reseeded into a second bracket is interesting. It would have to go by their original regional seed.

If it was this past season:

1. Grand Valley
2. Angelo State
3. IUP
4. Ferris Bueller
5. West Florida
6. Colorado Mines
7. Shepherd
8. Wingate.

Games would be
Wingate at Grand Valley
Shepherd at Angelo State
Colorado Mines at IUP
West Florida at Ferris Bueller

The winners would then be reseeded with the lowest remaining playingbthe highest remaining and the two middle face off. I hate hard brackets..the top seed remaining should always play the lowest remaining.

The NCAA needs to negotiate better rates for flights.

Why continue to reward the top 2 squads in SR1 with an automatic trip into the final 8 if they aren’t truly among the best 8 teams in D2?

In your format above NW at GV and Pitt at Ferris continues to happen in the 2nd round. (That’s what we are trying to get away from since they are clearly some of the best teams in D2 in 2022)

[Ram Tough]

The Rams lost midseason to Kutztown and came into the dance with 1 loss.

I think he's joking Witt. We hear so much about how terrible our program is from some people. So, whenever a GV fan brings it up, we bring up the 2015 semifinal game.