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  • #76
    Originally posted by KleShreen View Post

    If those are the "highlights" of the athletic department outside of football, then the athletic department has failed. If you put yourself in a position where the absolute best you can hope for is just MAKING the NCAA tournament in a sport and MAYBE pulling an upset in the first round, then you've failed.
    Then no one outside of the Power 5 should be D1 because those schools cannot compete for natty's and thus are failures.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Runnin' Cat View Post

      We used to say NAIA stood for "No Athletic Investigations Allowed".
      I know BITD some naia schools were the most dangerous the first few years after they moved up because the academic non-qualifiers got grandfathered in.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Try II View Post

        Then no one outside of the Power 5 should be D1 because those schools cannot compete for natty's and thus are failures.
        Now you're getting it.

        It's stupid to be D1 when the top rung of the pyramid for you is "win the Quick Lane Bowl"
        2021 D2Football Fantasy Champion

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        • #79
          Originally posted by KleShreen View Post

          Now you're getting it.

          It's stupid to be D1 when the top rung of the pyramid for you is "win the Quick Lane Bowl"
          Let's look at a golf pro at a local golf club. He makes 80k a year giving lessons and managing the pro shop. He wins the club championship every year, and is far and away the best golfer in poop county ohio.

          He takes his shot, makes the tour, and is good enough to get some decent sponsors. He finishes in the money enough to bring down a couple mil a year all in. He's never going to be Tiger, and will probably never do better in the majors than making the cut every once in a while.

          Your opinion is that he's an idiot for going pro instead of staying home to be the golf king of poop county?

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Predatory Primates View Post

            Let's look at a golf pro at a local golf club. He makes 80k a year giving lessons and managing the pro shop. He wins the club championship every year, and is far and away the best golfer in poop county ohio.

            He takes his shot, makes the tour, and is good enough to get some decent sponsors. He finishes in the money enough to bring down a couple mil a year all in. He's never going to be Tiger, and will probably never do better in the majors than making the cut every once in a while.

            Your opinion is that he's an idiot for going pro instead of staying home to be the golf king of poop county?
            Is the goal to make more money, or win championships? The golf pro is doing it to make more money. College athletics' goal should be to win championships, otherwise the existence of their program is misguided. I guess it depends if you want your athletics program to simply be a money laundering scheme for more students, or if you want it to actually win something.
            2021 D2Football Fantasy Champion

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            • #81
              Originally posted by KleShreen View Post

              Is the goal to make more money, or win championships? The golf pro is doing it to make more money. College athletics' goal should be to win championships, otherwise the existence of their program is misguided. I guess it depends if you want your athletics program to simply be a money laundering scheme for more students, or if you want it to actually win something.
              That’s the rub, Kle. Many (most?) folks don’t consider anything but D1 to be winning actual championships. You can bash all you want, but winning titles in anything other than D1/FBS isn’t really considered valid by the masses. SEC fans roll their eyes at NDSU’s FCS title dominance as if it’s JV.

              Of course, most mid-majors have to win a conference championship to get in the tournament. So, NDSU was winning a championship to just get into March Madness.

              I was just thinking last night how certain teams in transition that win their conference tournament but aren’t eligible for March Madness actually get as much press coverage as those who make it to the tournament. Bellarmine was all over the news when it happened to them last season giving them way more press coverage than when they were in the D2 Final Four or won their D2 natty.
              Last edited by UNALions; 06-01-2023, 12:00 PM.
              Go GSC and Roar LIONS!!

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              • #82
                Originally posted by UNALions View Post

                That’s the rub, Kle. Many (most?) folks don’t consider anything but D1 to be winning actual championships. You can bash all you want, but winning titles in anything other than D1/FBS isn’t really considered valid by the masses. SEC fans roll their eyes at NDSU’s FCS title dominance as if it’s JV.

                Of course, most mid-majors have to win a conference championship to get in the tournament. So, NDSU was winning a championship to just get into March Madness.

                I was just thinking last night how certain teams in transition that win their conference tournament but aren’t eligible for March Madness actually get as much press coverage as those who make it to the tournament. Bellarmine was all over the news when it happened to them last season giving them way more press coverage than when they were in the D2 Final Four or won their D2 natty.
                That's fine. We can have different opinions of what the goal is to be. I, personally, would never want to go to a school where there's zero chance of not only not winning a national championship, but not even being able to compete for one from the first day of competition like is the case in every sport that isn't based off times. If I were an NDSU football player, I sure as hell would be a lot happier about my college and athletic experience winning national championships than the kid at UAB who knew from before he even played the first game of every year that he wouldn't even have a shot to win a national title.
                2021 D2Football Fantasy Champion

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by KleShreen View Post

                  Is the goal to make more money, or win championships? The golf pro is doing it to make more money. College athletics' goal should be to win championships, otherwise the existence of their program is misguided. I guess it depends if you want your athletics program to simply be a money laundering scheme for more students, or if you want it to actually win something.

                  Now we're pretending the motivation behind college athletics is pure and altruistic?

                  Granted, it's less tainted in D2, but these schools are still trying to make money.

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by KleShreen View Post

                    That's fine. We can have different opinions of what the goal is to be. I, personally, would never want to go to a school where there's zero chance of not only not winning a national championship, but not even being able to compete for one from the first day of competition like is the case in every sport that isn't based off times. If I were an NDSU football player, I sure as hell would be a lot happier about my college and athletic experience winning national championships than the kid at UAB who knew from before he even played the first game of every year that he wouldn't even have a shot to win a national title.
                    In football, sure. But other sports aren’t always like that. Coastal Carolina won the College World Series in 2016 as a member of the Big South Conference.
                    Go GSC and Roar LIONS!!

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Try II View Post

                      Then no one outside of the Power 5 should be D1 because those schools cannot compete for natty's and thus are failures.
                      Your point is a good one. It isn't just about athletics and competing for championships.

                      Boise State was in the NAIA in 1968-69. They moved up to DII in 1970 and joined the Big Sky. The Big Sky moved up to IAA in 1978. They then made the move to IA in 1996.

                      Enrollment at BSU was a little over 15,000 when they made the move up to IA/FBS. Enrollment is now over 25,000.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by KleShreen View Post

                        That's fine. We can have different opinions of what the goal is to be. I, personally, would never want to go to a school where there's zero chance of not only not winning a national championship, but not even being able to compete for one from the first day of competition like is the case in every sport that isn't based off times. If I were an NDSU football player, I sure as hell would be a lot happier about my college and athletic experience winning national championships than the kid at UAB who knew from before he even played the first game of every year that he wouldn't even have a shot to win a national title.
                        I see that, but that's the case for MOST schools in D2 too. How many have a reasonable shot at making a playoff.. let alone competing for the actual Natty? So should they then go to D3 or NAIA? Or should they drop athletics altogether? This topic goes beyond the dollars. Yes the student athlete is impacted, but many go to a losing D1 program over a winning D2 one. And no, they aren't on full schollies at D1. And there is no clear value stated for the D1 program and the tangible value that it brings to a university. But there is value. Just like there being value for a D2 one. Though more value at the D1 level.

                        And you keep bringing up the Quick Lane bowl... that gets more exposure than most every football game in D2. And the swag they give the players is one of the better bowl games to do it. I bet most would rather play that game than going to a first or second round PO D2 game.

                        Just look at Director cups standings. How many schools have few or no post season points? Would it be that different if they moved to D1? Probably not. So what are those schools giving up if they move up? Yes, it costs more for the school, but yeah, they get to be D1. Alum go for that. I don't think it's a big deal, but most others seem to. And the Student athletes can say they were a D1 athlete. Many a time when you hear someone talking about playing a sport in college, it's mostly like "did you play D1?" Not "did you play for a Natty?"

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Redwing View Post

                          I see that, but that's the case for MOST schools in D2 too. How many have a reasonable shot at making a playoff.. let alone competing for the actual Natty? So should they then go to D3 or NAIA? Or should they drop athletics altogether? This topic goes beyond the dollars. Yes the student athlete is impacted, but many go to a losing D1 program over a winning D2 one. And no, they aren't on full schollies at D1. And there is no clear value stated for the D1 program and the tangible value that it brings to a university. But there is value. Just like there being value for a D2 one. Though more value at the D1 level.

                          And you keep bringing up the Quick Lane bowl... that gets more exposure than most every football game in D2. And the swag they give the players is one of the better bowl games to do it. I bet most would rather play that game than going to a first or second round PO D2 game.

                          Just look at Director cups standings. How many schools have few or no post season points? Would it be that different if they moved to D1? Probably not. So what are those schools giving up if they move up? Yes, it costs more for the school, but yeah, they get to be D1. Alum go for that. I don't think it's a big deal, but most others seem to. And the Student athletes can say they were a D1 athlete. Many a time when you hear someone talking about playing a sport in college, it's mostly like "did you play D1?" Not "did you play for a Natty?"
                          I understand all of this. If Lindenwood wants to be a D1 school after not doing anything in D2, good for them. They're not losing anything by doing that. Go for it. But if you're a successful D2 school, it's wild to move up to D1 and think you're going to compete in anything besides FCS football, which is only because FCS football is a subset of D1 that doesn't include the powers that you have no shot of ever beating.

                          Again, my opinion is almost exclusively based off "how much athletic success can you have?" And my measure of "Success" is winning. That isn't everyone's opinion of college athletics. And that's fine. I just find it wild that schools who have halls built for national championship trophies in their history willingly move up to D1, and essentially can throw away the key to that hall...or convert it to a football coaches office. There's just as many kids who will turn down the D1 PWO to go play for a successful D2 as there are kids who will take the D1 scholarship at a mid-major instead of going to a successful D2.

                          That's why I asked....how does one measure "success" going from D2 to D1? Because it isn't going to come in trophies or athletics success. To me, the only way you can be "successful" by moving up to D1 is if it means your athletics program is making more money to contribute to the school as a whole. It's impossible to be "successful" from an athletics success standpoint. Boise State is the most successful school who joined D1 in the last 50 years, and they've won exactly zero national championships as a D1 school. Is their winning one Fiesta Bowl worth the 50 years of not winning anything else? That's for them to decide. I don't think that would be worth it. And that's by FAR the most successful story. NDSU keeps winning FCS titles, but as you pointed out, nobody really cares about that. Their next most notable thing in the last 20 years is them winning ONE March Madness game. Having that be the ceiling of success sounds miserable, in my opinion. But again, I understand that most people only care about one sport at a school and my caring about the entire program is not the norm for a fan. I would just be hard-pressed to go from competing for national championships in multiple sports and having multiple all-americans in multiple sports every year to.........maybe winning a couple conference championships and maybe getting one all-american across all sports once every few years.
                          2021 D2Football Fantasy Champion

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Redwing View Post

                            I see that, but that's the case for MOST schools in D2 too. How many have a reasonable shot at making a playoff.. let alone competing for the actual Natty? So should they then go to D3 or NAIA? Or should they drop athletics altogether? This topic goes beyond the dollars. Yes the student athlete is impacted, but many go to a losing D1 program over a winning D2 one. And no, they aren't on full schollies at D1. And there is no clear value stated for the D1 program and the tangible value that it brings to a university. But there is value. Just like there being value for a D2 one. Though more value at the D1 level.

                            And you keep bringing up the Quick Lane bowl... that gets more exposure than most every football game in D2. And the swag they give the players is one of the better bowl games to do it. I bet most would rather play that game than going to a first or second round PO D2 game.

                            Just look at Director cups standings. How many schools have few or no post season points? Would it be that different if they moved to D1? Probably not. So what are those schools giving up if they move up? Yes, it costs more for the school, but yeah, they get to be D1. Alum go for that. I don't think it's a big deal, but most others seem to. And the Student athletes can say they were a D1 athlete. Many a time when you hear someone talking about playing a sport in college, it's mostly like "did you play D1?" Not "did you play for a Natty?"
                            I'm no Kle apologist, but much of what he has written in this thread is spot-on IMO.

                            As for "they get to be D1...alum go for that" in your post above, I just find that incredibly difficult to believe. I can't tell you how many people don't know the difference between Grand Valley, Wright State, Central Michigan, and Cornerstone. To most folks (including lots of alums of these schools), they are all the same. If we're going to be "all the same", then our one major differentiator is that we WIN, dammit. Spend more money to give that up? Forget it.
                            Last edited by Irishlaker; 06-01-2023, 08:41 PM.

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Predatory Primates View Post

                              I agree that the measure of success is in dollars.

                              That said, if you field crap teams, you get crap donations. Not sure about enrollment increase, as I'm not sure sports has much to do with that.
                              Sports can absolutely have a huge impact on enrollment, even at the D2 level. Want to know something the coincided with GVSU's rise as a football national title contender? The schools enrollment. One of the pitches GVSU was able to make to potential students was that you could see their football team on national TV playing for national titles. Even beyond that pitch, people across the country culd see the name Grand Valley State University and some might even look up the school name, visit the schools website, and become interested in the school.

                              When I started at GVSU we were a 12-15K enrollment. I was about 25,000 including graduate programs at its peak.

                              Also, sports, and addming sports can impact enrollment. It is more important for a smaller school (enrollment wise), than a bigger school, but it can still make a difference. Why is it that several DII, DIII and NAIA schools are adding "Olympic" sports like swimming and diving? They bring in students who otherwise might not consider attending the school. Loom at Aquainas College in Grand Rapids. They are an NAIA school with an enrollment of 1150 students. They recently added a swimming and diving program which had 19 men and 18 women. that is 37 students who otherwise likely wouldn't be enrolling at the school. Adding sports can be a financial benefit to the school under certain circumstances. First, you have to have low enough costs to make the money gained from tuition worth it. Undergraduate costs are roughly 18K per student after aid is taken into consideration. That means for the AQ swim program, 37 students paying an average of 18K per year to attend. This produces roughly $666,000 in additional revenue for the school. When you account for coaching staff salaries, travel, facility rental (AQ rents a local HS pool for practices and meets), and other costs associated with the additional 37 students on campus, does the addition of the sport make financial sense for the school?

                              I can say personally some sports do make sense to add in this manner, while others frankly don't. I don't think a lot of schools (mainly at the D1 level) will be adding tennis programs. Tennis has a small number of student athletes, but a large cost relative to the additional revenue receieved. Other sports like lacrosse are more likely to be added. Why add lacrosse? A typical D2 lacrosse program has 35 or so members on the roster, but scholarship limits of about 13 (D1 level). This means a lot of student athletes paying their own way to attend the school. (This is one reason why Eastern Michigan University fought to add women's lacrosse rather than reinstate women's softball several years ago).

                              Several schools have learned the hard way on athletic additions and athletic cuts and the balancing act that must be taken. It doesn't always work out in the favor of the school. While many programs have benefitted from athletic success, others have not survived and have now closed after athletic gambles didn't work. Finlandia University, in Michighan's UP, attempted to use athletics to increase enrollment. They added a football program in 2015. The program had limited success on the field in the early years, but concluded 2022 on about a 39 game losing streak. Even with the enrollment boost bringing in football players brought, it was not enough to overcome the many other issues Finlandia was facing. This Spring the last graduate of Finlandia University crossed the stage to accept her diploma. Findlandia University's board decided in March to close the university citing financial difficulties and enrollment sturggles.

                              In conclusion, yes everything is meansured in dollars. Some schools do have the ability to use athletics to help boost enrollment and their "name" appeal. Other schools have tried using athletics to help boost their schools profile with disasterous and even fatal results.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by KleShreen View Post

                                I understand all of this. If Lindenwood wants to be a D1 school after not doing anything in D2, good for them. They're not losing anything by doing that. Go for it. But if you're a successful D2 school, it's wild to move up to D1 and think you're going to compete in anything besides FCS football, which is only because FCS football is a subset of D1 that doesn't include the powers that you have no shot of ever beating.

                                Again, my opinion is almost exclusively based off "how much athletic success can you have?" And my measure of "Success" is winning. That isn't everyone's opinion of college athletics. And that's fine. I just find it wild that schools who have halls built for national championship trophies in their history willingly move up to D1, and essentially can throw away the key to that hall...or convert it to a football coaches office. There's just as many kids who will turn down the D1 PWO to go play for a successful D2 as there are kids who will take the D1 scholarship at a mid-major instead of going to a successful D2.

                                That's why I asked....how does one measure "success" going from D2 to D1? Because it isn't going to come in trophies or athletics success. To me, the only way you can be "successful" by moving up to D1 is if it means your athletics program is making more money to contribute to the school as a whole. It's impossible to be "successful" from an athletics success standpoint. Boise State is the most successful school who joined D1 in the last 50 years, and they've won exactly zero national championships as a D1 school. Is their winning one Fiesta Bowl worth the 50 years of not winning anything else? That's for them to decide. I don't think that would be worth it. And that's by FAR the most successful story. NDSU keeps winning FCS titles, but as you pointed out, nobody really cares about that. Their next most notable thing in the last 20 years is them winning ONE March Madness game. Having that be the ceiling of success sounds miserable, in my opinion. But again, I understand that most people only care about one sport at a school and my caring about the entire program is not the norm for a fan. I would just be hard-pressed to go from competing for national championships in multiple sports and having multiple all-americans in multiple sports every year to.........maybe winning a couple conference championships and maybe getting one all-american across all sports once every few years.
                                I would disagree with you on the most successful school to move up from DII to DI in the last 50 years. I don't think it is Boise St. I think it is Central Florida, who was in DII from 1982 until moving up to D1 in 1990. Unlike Boise State, UCF, within a few short weeks will be competing in a Power 5 conference, the Big 12. While it has taken 40 years, you are seeing former DII schools which are growing towards being Power Conference athletic programs.

                                I do think Boise State will end up being the next program to move into a Power Conference from being a DII school when the Pac 12 decides to admit them.

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