Piaa split up...

[Big Ike 97]

Re: Piaa split up...

Overall I think it still needs to be addressed. As far as WPIAL goes due to its size some of it is a little more well hidden especially on gridiron. For every strong private program you have you have some struggling. But I don't think for 1 second if you right the ship the transient nature of private institutions can make a program heal quicker than most public. There are less but a few public schools able to do the same. I.E. Gateway on the eastern edge of the city. When Terry Smith had the lights burning bright there were many, and I'm sure some true, that said kids from a fallen Penn Hills and the cities eastern neighborhoods were finding their way to Monroeville somehow.

I feel more of a strain for places like D5 and D6. D5 really has no juggernaut per se. I am a "yinzer" like stated before who loves his Friday night ball, especially smaller classes. I quickly found myself up IUP only really being able to follow some conference I was not too aware of. A conference called the Heritage. All I knew most of my years 97-00 was that a big story was a United team that I think upset a juggernaught private Bishop Mccort program that was facing off the WPIAL in states every year it seemed, well them and public Tyrone. They seemed to reload with guys from other programs yearly to fill holes. More of who I followed were my friends from Blairsville. They had quite a run My time up IUP but I think for like 3 years they kept facing a buzzsaw in Bishop Carroll, never seemed to get that chance at a championship. IDK United did it, but felt some of these special runs from small publics should not be stopped so much by Private schools. I think football there is less of a defense but basketball, specifically girls, public schools beyond section champs have quite a time challenging the private schools for championship runs. Again for football , in D6, you have just enough United Stories and Homer Center to argue against any restriction, but there is nothing like a small school getting that whole town behind them and enjoying the occasional couple year runs. Without the menace of a superpower able to get the who's who of kids from all over region especially in smaller classifications.

[Mikefln]

Re: Piaa split up...

I.E. Gateway on the eastern edge of the city. When Terry Smith had the lights burning bright there were many, and I'm sure some true, that said kids from a fallen Penn Hills and the cities eastern neighborhoods were finding their way to Monroeville somehow.

While let me put it this way. When Gateway was on top with Smith Penn Hills was struggling. Now with no Smith at Gateway, Penn Hills is good again along with Gateway. Hell of a coincidence if you ask me.

Without the menace of a superpower able to get the who's who of kids from all over region especially in smaller classifications.

Again I go back to the question: "What are these private schools doing that make kids/parents go there, that the local SD is not providing?" I know the reasons why my parents sent me to Catholic school over the public. I would have went to a City of Pittsburgh public school. My parents felt the education at those schools to be sub-standard so they paid for a private option. Obviously I went because my parents made me, but I liked it because it was WPIAL instead of City League. So again what is Bishop Carroll/ McDevitt/ Goufoyel (sp?) offering that Johnstown, Forest Hills, Altoona, etc. is not? I know someone will say sports opportunities, to which I would counter, I bet more scouts saw Altoona playing against WPIAL 6A teams than BG playing against whoever it was they played against.

[IUPNation]

Re: Piaa split up...

Overall I think it still needs to be addressed. As far as WPIAL goes due to its size some of it is a little more well hidden especially on gridiron. For every strong private program you have you have some struggling. But I don't think for 1 second if you right the ship the transient nature of private institutions can make a program heal quicker than most public. There are less but a few public schools able to do the same. I.E. Gateway on the eastern edge of the city. When Terry Smith had the lights burning bright there were many, and I'm sure some true, that said kids from a fallen Penn Hills and the cities eastern neighborhoods were finding their way to Monroeville somehow.

I feel more of a strain for places like D5 and D6. D5 really has no juggernaut per se. I am a "yinzer" like stated before who loves his Friday night ball, especially smaller classes. I quickly found myself up IUP only really being able to follow some conference I was not too aware of. A conference called the Heritage. All I knew most of my years 97-00 was that a big story was a United team that I think upset a juggernaught private Bishop Mccort program that was facing off the WPIAL in states every year it seemed, well them and public Tyrone. They seemed to reload with guys from other programs yearly to fill holes. More of who I followed were my friends from Blairsville. They had quite a run My time up IUP but I think for like 3 years they kept facing a buzzsaw in Bishop Carroll, never seemed to get that chance at a championship. IDK United did it, but felt some of these special runs from small publics should not be stopped so much by Private schools. I think football there is less of a defense but basketball, specifically girls, public schools beyond section champs have quite a time challenging the private schools for championship runs. Again for football , in D6, you have just enough United Stories and Homer Center to argue against any restriction, but there is nothing like a small school getting that whole town behind them and enjoying the occasional couple year runs. Without the menace of a superpower able to get the who's who of kids from all over region especially in smaller classifications.

Those smaller Catholic schools like McCort and Carroll should be playing at a higher level if they are doing that and have the money to fund sports despite having a smaller enrollment

That is really the fix. The PIAA should know how much each school is spending and using that as the determining factor for classification. Maybe McCort should have been playing at the AAA (I'm going by the old 4 class standard here...I have no idea how the new ones are set up) level all those years.

I still think those smaller schools need to be merged because it would be more cost effective. United and Blarirsville should be one school. Homer Center should be merged into Indiana Area and Purchase Line, Penns Manor and Marion Center should be one school too. The small towns out there are dying and ralling around a foosball team making a run once every 20 years isn't going to change anything.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: Piaa split up...

Again I go back to the question: "What are these private schools doing that make kids/parents go there, that the local SD is not providing?" I know the reasons why my parents sent me to Catholic school over the public. I would have went to a City of Pittsburgh public school. My parents felt the education at those schools to be sub-standard so they paid for a private option. Obviously I went because my parents made me, but I liked it because it was WPIAL instead of City League. So again what is Bishop Carroll/ McDevitt/ Goufoyel (sp?) offering that Johnstown, Forest Hills, Altoona, etc. is not? I know someone will say sports opportunities, to which I would counter, I bet more scouts saw Altoona playing against WPIAL 6A teams than BG playing against whoever it was they played against.[/QUOTE]

That is a good example. You would have went to a city league school but opted to pay to attend Central ... sounds like a legit academic transfer and you were already in the city.

I have a little harder time with Central snagging kids from an hour (+) away who already attend strong academic public high schools.

The Gateway and Penn Hills theory ... That's interesting.

When you get a little further out in the suburbs (Plum, etc.) ... Those teams really wait for the right class and the stars to align every couple years. Kiski always has a few good athletes every year but never enough to play in 5A. So, when they lose a Justice Evans or a JJ Consentino (full ride QB to Florida State) ... It's devastating. Both played at Central.

[IUPNation]

Re: Piaa split up...

Opp...I thought Coatesville played in Hershey last year. They did lost to St Joe's but then St Joe's lost to that rich school district north of Pittsburgh in Hershey.

In fact...Pine Richland beat Central Catholic too. So they beat both of the Catholic schools in the 6A playoff field last season.

In 5A - Archbishop Wood won and was the only Catholic school in the brackets. However...their success is because of the blunder of the Central Bucks school district adding a third high school and effectively ending the old Central Bucks West dynasty and Central Bucks East wasn't much of pushover either. So...parents must be sending their kids down the road to Warminster so they can play together at Wood.

[Mikefln]

Re: Piaa split up...

That is a good example. You would have went to a city league school but opted to pay to attend Central ... sounds like a legit academic transfer and you were already in the city.

To clarify I never went to a Public school, I went from k-12 in Catholic school so I did not transfer from Brashear or Langley (the possible public schools I would have went to) to Canevin, I actually transferred from one Catholic school Seton LaSalle to another Catholic School, Canevin. Back when I went to HS the Dioceses had boundaries that if you lived in a certain part you went to that Catholic school unless if there was reason to go to a school outside of that boundry (i.e. easier on parents do to job, family legecy at a certain school, etc.). In my case I lived in a part of town that sat on the border so I was able to choice either (I made the wrong choice out of 8th grade) it is not like that today as it appears to be open enrollment. My statement I made in my original post is why my parents chose private over public. There are reasons why parents do so, is my point.

I have a little harder time with Central snagging kids from an hour (+) away who already attend strong academic public high schools.

As I mentioned, the Dioceses of Pittsburgh used to put boundaries but do to low enrollment they moved to a more open enrollment. As far as the strong academic public schools, they need to identify why a kid would want to leave there to attend the private school. Trust me, no one is getting full tuition discount to play sports at these Catholic Schools.The finances are not there to allow that, so unless if they scored high enough on a scholarship test, they are paying over $8000 a year. So why are they willing to do that instead attend the public school. should be the question public schools ask themselves. Once that is identified the school can then try to improve in that area if they feel it is valuable enough to them to keep kids like that. If they don't want to improve they need to shut up.

The Gateway and Penn Hills theory ... That's interesting.

Your right that is a theory but damn if it isn't a hell of a coincidence. Outside of like 2003/4 when both were good, PH took a nose dive that they didn't get out of until the last few years, which coisideds with Smiths departure from Gateway.

When you get a little further out in the suburbs (Plum, etc.) ... Those teams really wait for the right class and the stars to align every couple years. Kiski always has a few good athletes every year but never enough to play in 5A. So, when they lose a Justice Evans or a JJ Consentino (full ride QB to Florida State) ... It's devastating. Both played at Central.

Honestly, so do most private schools outside of Pittsburgh Central, Erie Cathedral Prep, and those eastern powers. Like I said, a few privates are the problem, so look and see if there is tampering going on. If there is provide the proof and punish them. If not, then move a long.

[Fightingscot82]

Re: Piaa split up...

I think pretty much Aliquippa and Quaker Valley. I could be wrong but I think Mcnair whos going to CLarion, the LB from Aliquippa that's going to CAL...and the rb/ss kid that played at QV and now going to one of the D2's in WV. I think the only one that was ruled ineligible in that ordeal was because his family put up it on social media that is was about athletics. I think there was a thread on here before about it. I think Aliquippa also had kids from other districts that killed someone last year and when that happened they distanced themselves from those kids as not from Aliquippa.

I don't think its real common for most public schools. I knew schools that would have some over the years but its them trying to cheat....not being allowed to do it and compete with public schools. I don't get how anyone can argue public schools playing private schools is a fair playing field just because some privates don't emphasize sports so they aren't good. Schools like Cathedral Prep in Erie do a good job of overrating their kids to colleges and getting them bigger than they should.....that compared to staying at most pee-on HS's that's coaches don't know or care anything about recruiting.....it makes it an easy sell. The big reason the kid from Seneca just transferred for his sr year to be at Prep....you know what Mischler the HC will do for you....and as long as he does he will get kids pouring in there. I would too. But they should have to be playing the big privates..... I'd like to see the big private school playoff bracket....whoever wins that...I''ll be impressed. Otherwise your PItt and Penn st beating IUP and SRU.

In the WPIAL that's not the case when we're talking football. As I mentioned below, 9 of 11 private high schools with football made the playoffs in 2017. Those two who didn't both missed by one game. Sure there are exceptions - but really most of them just emphasize (and thus perform well in) the sports they emphasize. Schools like Sewickley and Shadyside Academies.

Again I go back to the question: "What are these private schools doing that make kids/parents go there, that the local SD is not providing?" I know the reasons why my parents sent me to Catholic school over the public. I would have went to a City of Pittsburgh public school. My parents felt the education at those schools to be sub-standard so they paid for a private option. Obviously I went because my parents made me, but I liked it because it was WPIAL instead of City League. So again what is Bishop Carroll/ McDevitt/ Goufoyel (sp?) offering that Johnstown, Forest Hills, Altoona, etc. is not? I know someone will say sports opportunities, to which I would counter, I bet more scouts saw Altoona playing against WPIAL 6A teams than BG playing against whoever it was they played against.

That is a good example. You would have went to a city league school but opted to pay to attend Central ... sounds like a legit academic transfer and you were already in the city.

I have a little harder time with Central snagging kids from an hour (+) away who already attend strong academic public high schools.

The Gateway and Penn Hills theory ... That's interesting.

When you get a little further out in the suburbs (Plum, etc.) ... Those teams really wait for the right class and the stars to align every couple years. Kiski always has a few good athletes every year but never enough to play in 5A. So, when they lose a Justice Evans or a JJ Consentino (full ride QB to Florida State) ... It's devastating. Both played at Central.

Yes but Penn Hills and Gateway neighbor each other and its not much of a stretch for someone from Penn Hills to move one mile away to Wilkins, still feel like they're in the neighborhood, but then attend Gateway. This is synonymous with Aliquippa and Hopewell and the way Center and Monaca used to be. To me its the same as the Ohio River valley towns. The people I know from those areas bump around their whole life without stigma. Hell I swear 20% of the population in those towns is a member of the Jeter family. In those areas you can relocate without really changing your family life. Before we bought our house, my wife and I were renting a townhouse that was in Bellevue, which is Northgate School District. Across the street from us was Ross Township, which is North Hills School District. The taxes are significantly lower across the street. We could have bought a house across the street, which would have lowered our tax bill and put our kids in line for a better school district, all while never really changing our personal life.

I admit that I haven't read much into the Central Catholic transfers over the last decade but I think it can be a proximity to parents' work opportunity. Kid gets a scholarship to attend Central Catholic and I can drop him off on my way to work. That's worth looking into if he's a notable athlete but its a reasonable explanation.

[Mikefln]

Re: Piaa split up...

In the WPIAL that's not the case when we're talking football. As I mentioned below, 9 of 11 private high schools with football made the playoffs in 2017. Those two who didn't both missed by one game. Sure there are exceptions - but really most of them just emphasize (and thus perform well in) the sports they emphasize. Schools like Sewickley and Shadyside Academies.

Fighting Scot you seem like a smart guy and I like reading your opinion and agree with some and disagree with some. With that said, sorry but 9 out of 11 privates making the playoffs proves nothing. So many bad teams make the playoffs, just like so many bad D1 college teams make bowl games. You are either using old standard like back in the mid 90's or earlier, when making the playoffs meant you were actually good or using the FCS/D2/D3 college standard where it still means you are good to be in the playoffs. making the playoff in HS today means you are just average. With today's low standards tell me how many of the 11 private schools made the semi's?

[Horror Child]

Re: Piaa split up...

Again I go back to the question: "What are these private schools doing that make kids/parents go there, that the local SD is not providing?" I know the reasons why my parents sent me to Catholic school over the public. I would have went to a City of Pittsburgh public school. My parents felt the education at those schools to be sub-standard so they paid for a private option. Obviously I went because my parents made me, but I liked it because it was WPIAL instead of City League. So again what is Bishop Carroll/ McDevitt/ Goufoyel (sp?) offering that Johnstown, Forest Hills, Altoona, etc. is not? I know someone will say sports opportunities, to which I would counter, I bet more scouts saw Altoona playing against WPIAL 6A teams than BG playing against whoever it was they played against.[/QUOTE]

Charging tuition. So the student population tends to be more affluent and Caucasian.

[iupgroundhog]

Re: Piaa split up...

Proof? I hear the hearsay all the time, I have never seen the proof or evidence that it is happening.

If you're looking for definitive proof I don't think you will find it. It's not like NCAA violations where they do internal and external investigations. The PIAA and other state athletic associations aren't set up that way.

All you have to do, though, is put 2 + 2 together and get 4. When you consider the timing issues, the distances, the academics of the transfers and other factors it is apparent. They're not tapping phone lines or confiscating the hard drives of computers. On a case by case basis you can always go into denial mode but I think there would be few people who would question that it happens like you seem to be doing.

[iupgroundhog]

Re: Piaa split up...

[COLOR="#0000FF"]

Again I go back to the question: "What are these private schools doing that make kids/parents go there, that the local SD is not providing?"

All you're doing is defending the education and avoiding the topic of outside of the rules recruitment. There is no question that kids/paremts choose private and parochial schools for their perceived benefits. That says nothing about skirting recruitment rules.

[ctrabs74]

Re: Piaa split up...

I still think those smaller schools need to be merged because it would be more cost effective. United and Blarirsville should be one school. Homer Center should be merged into Indiana Area and Purchase Line, Penns Manor and Marion Center should be one school too. The small towns out there are dying and ralling around a foosball team making a run once every 20 years isn't going to change anything.

Good luck selling that to these small school districts and, for that matter, to the larger districts. Just because a Clairton City School District is on the verge of failure, that doesn't mean that West Jefferson Hills, Elizabeth-Forward, South Allegheny or West Mifflin will welcome them in with open arms. The only such situations that we've had here in Pittsburgh was Duquesne City closing their middle/high school and sending their kids to West Mifflin or East Allegheny, and Wilkinsburg Borough closing their high school and sending their students to Pittsburgh Westinghouse. And there was the merger of Center Area and Monaca into Central Valley in Beaver County.

A state legislator would rather vote to triple the state income tax than vote to make school district mergers/consolidations easier.

[ctrabs74]

Re: Piaa split up...

Yes but Penn Hills and Gateway neighbor each other and its not much of a stretch for someone from Penn Hills to move one mile away to Wilkins, still feel like they're in the neighborhood, but then attend Gateway.

Not too long ago, Penn Hills went on a capital spending spree and bought ads on WTAE (Channel 4) which pretty much jacked up taxes to an extreme level. That seems to have bit the taxpayers in the backside, to be honest.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: Piaa split up...

Canning Neil Gordon didn't help, either.

[Mikefln]

Re: Piaa split up...

If you're looking for definitive proof I don't think you will find it. It's not like NCAA violations where they do internal and external investigations. The PIAA and other state athletic associations aren't set up that way.

All you have to do, though, is put 2 + 2 together and get 4. When you consider the timing issues, the distances, the academics of the transfers and other factors it is apparent. They're not tapping phone lines or confiscating the hard drives of computers. On a case by case basis you can always go into denial mode but I think there would be few people who would question that it happens like you seem to be doing.

I don't question it happens I know it, but guess what? What you state is not how our society works. Our society works by bringing physical evidence and having a case about it. Anything less than that is frankly how third world dictatorships work.