PASSHE Institutions Merging

[Bart]

The PASSHE schools have always served the students that would work hard, but maybe couldn't do well on standardized test, or had to adapt to college because of being a first generation student. What's happening now is something different. A few years ago, I talked to a Psych professor. The psych department has its students do IQ testing on freshman students, mostly to train their students how to do testing. What they were finding was disturbing. There are a limited number of students that are capable and should do college classes.

[Fightingscot82]

Bloom has terminated their affiliation with all fraternities and sororities and all national Greek organizations today.

That's a really, really stupid move. More kids will die.

[Bart]

Bloom has terminated their affiliation with all fraternities and sororities and all national Greek organizations today.

[Fightingscot82]

I agree with some of that. Personally, I think there should be more federal involvement in public education. However, in historical terms, the United States of America disagrees. Public education is controlled on the state and local level. That's the way we like it. Given the amount of disunity in the country increased federal leverage on educational content seems impossible.

There are all kinds of vocational education opportunities available to students. All kinds of internship opportunities. Quite a bit of involvement by private industry. The other side of the coin is how much we value our "freedom." Generally, every American should be able to choose the kind of work they do and prepare themselves accordingly. Geez, we are free to be "undecided" through all 4 years of a Bachelor's degree. We don't get directed to certain types of work against our will by the state, by Big Brother, like in some countries.

I think the biggest problem is the lack of focus and intensity of our schooling. Of course, we don't want our kids to be "indoctrinated", if you know what I mean.

+100

A lot of the people I see complaining about what schools do/don't teach are also the ones who don't like the government telling them what to do.

I still think there should be better continuity between levels of education. If you want to stop so far along, that's fine, but the transition must get better between levels. I still have some years to prepare but my wife & I have decided that our kids get 1 year after high school to "figure it out" as our dependent. Gap year, work, whatever. But July 1st a year later they've got to be fully engulfed in something career oriented whether it be education, training, military, or some career minded work. The current high school curriculum worked just fine when most high school graduates had some sort of fall back plan like going to work for their parents, or with dad in the mill/mine. Now it seems like the fall back plan is living at home while making $9.25/hour.

[iupgroundhog]

Education in this country is a birds nest. Most everything existed before the federal government really got involved and still a lot of people reject the federal government's involvement in any level of education. This is the biggest difference between the USA and most major countries - there's no plan or model from top to bottom connecting the different types of education. Kids can watch cartoons for 5 years and show up for kindergarten with a class full of other kids who have had structured daycare and preschool. K-12 school prepares us for nothing: it doesn't prepare us for post-high school work, training, or education. High school coursework largely promotes regurgitation of simple facts created by the textbook publisher. If anything high school prepares students to take the SAT and state exams. Its why our country has such poor problem-solving and critical thinking skills. Its just a sequence of courses that hasn't changed much since the Cold War when the feds made science required. Its why we still require shop class and home ec and usually only offer European foreign languages. Then kids get to college and have NO IDEA how to teach themselves or think critically. They can only regurgitate or recognize multiple choice questions.

In PA, there should be a model that aligns the curriculum of high schools with post-secondary options for students. If we spent the same amount of money on career exploration as we did on football or prom we'd be better off. There's no alignment between state-funded community colleges and state-funded universities. There's very little alignment between state-funded college degree programs and the state economy. Almost everyone is comprehensive except Penn College and Thaddeus Stevens. In the US, you can graduate high school and then ask "now what?" You can graduate from community college and then ask "now what?" You can also graduate from a state university and ask "now what?" and have never put any thought into those questions until that moment.

That's the end of my rant.

I agree with some of that. Personally, I think there should be more federal involvement in public education. However, in historical terms, the United States of America disagrees. Public education is controlled on the state and local level. That's the way we like it. Given the amount of disunity in the country increased federal leverage on educational content seems impossible.

There are all kinds of vocational education opportunities available to students. All kinds of internship opportunities. Quite a bit of involvement by private industry. The other side of the coin is how much we value our "freedom." Generally, every American should be able to choose the kind of work they do and prepare themselves accordingly. Geez, we are free to be "undecided" through all 4 years of a Bachelor's degree. We don't get directed to certain types of work against our will by the state, by Big Brother, like in some countries.

I think the biggest problem is the lack of focus and intensity of our schooling. Of course, we don't want our kids to be "indoctrinated", if you know what I mean.

[complaint_hopeful]

Education in this country is a birds nest. Most everything existed before the federal government really got involved and still a lot of people reject the federal government's involvement in any level of education. This is the biggest difference between the USA and most major countries - there's no plan or model from top to bottom connecting the different types of education. Kids can watch cartoons for 5 years and show up for kindergarten with a class full of other kids who have had structured daycare and preschool. K-12 school prepares us for nothing: it doesn't prepare us for post-high school work, training, or education. High school coursework largely promotes regurgitation of simple facts created by the textbook publisher. If anything high school prepares students to take the SAT and state exams. Its why our country has such poor problem-solving and critical thinking skills. Its just a sequence of courses that hasn't changed much since the Cold War when the feds made science required. Its why we still require shop class and home ec and usually only offer European foreign languages. Then kids get to college and have NO IDEA how to teach themselves or think critically. They can only regurgitate or recognize multiple choice questions.

In PA, there should be a model that aligns the curriculum of high schools with post-secondary options for students. If we spent the same amount of money on career exploration as we did on football or prom we'd be better off. There's no alignment between state-funded community colleges and state-funded universities. There's very little alignment between state-funded college degree programs and the state economy. Almost everyone is comprehensive except Penn College and Thaddeus Stevens. In the US, you can graduate high school and then ask "now what?" You can graduate from community college and then ask "now what?" You can also graduate from a state university and ask "now what?" and have never put any thought into those questions until that moment.

That's the end of my rant.

Yep. And a lot of careers that students go into, you can use the Internet to research stuff. So it's more about learning and knowing how to analyze an issue and find a solution...by using resources. Rather than memorization like most tests require. A lot of people never learn how to thing.

And when a parent does everything for a kid until the kid is 22, it makes matters even worse. And that happens. And the parent thinks they're helping the kid.

[Fightingscot82]

Education in this country is a birds nest. Most everything existed before the federal government really got involved and still a lot of people reject the federal government's involvement in any level of education. This is the biggest difference between the USA and most major countries - there's no plan or model from top to bottom connecting the different types of education. Kids can watch cartoons for 5 years and show up for kindergarten with a class full of other kids who have had structured daycare and preschool. K-12 school prepares us for nothing: it doesn't prepare us for post-high school work, training, or education. High school coursework largely promotes regurgitation of simple facts created by the textbook publisher. If anything high school prepares students to take the SAT and state exams. Its why our country has such poor problem-solving and critical thinking skills. Its just a sequence of courses that hasn't changed much since the Cold War when the feds made science required. Its why we still require shop class and home ec and usually only offer European foreign languages. Then kids get to college and have NO IDEA how to teach themselves or think critically. They can only regurgitate or recognize multiple choice questions.

In PA, there should be a model that aligns the curriculum of high schools with post-secondary options for students. If we spent the same amount of money on career exploration as we did on football or prom we'd be better off. There's no alignment between state-funded community colleges and state-funded universities. There's very little alignment between state-funded college degree programs and the state economy. Almost everyone is comprehensive except Penn College and Thaddeus Stevens. In the US, you can graduate high school and then ask "now what?" You can graduate from community college and then ask "now what?" You can also graduate from a state university and ask "now what?" and have never put any thought into those questions until that moment.

That's the end of my rant.

[ironmaniup]

Thanks to the lower standards 50 years ago, I was able to get into Bloom as a summer probationary student where I earned 9 credits, and was allowed to return for the spring semester. I went to attend 5 graduate schools, nearly earn 2 Master degrees, get admitted to a Doctorate program, and was offered to teach at a college. As one of my professors said "his ambition outstretches his abilities". The state schools are a lifeline for those seeking a second chance.

The PASSHE schools have always served the students that would work hard, but maybe couldn't do well on standardized test, or had to adapt to college because of being a first generation student. What's happening now is something different. A few years ago, I talked to a Psych professor. The psych department has its students do IQ testing on freshman students, mostly to train their students how to do testing. What they were finding was disturbing. There are a limited number of students that are capable and should do college classes.

[Bart]

Yep. And as enrollment tanks, schools relax standards and take kids with lower grades...that may fail out at a higher percentage and thus hurt retention.

Thanks to the lower standards 50 years ago, I was able to get into Bloom as a summer probationary student where I earned 9 credits, and was allowed to return for the spring semester. I went to attend 5 graduate schools, nearly earn 2 Master degrees, get admitted to a Doctorate program, and was offered to teach at a college. As one of my professors said "his ambition outstretches his abilities". The state schools are a lifeline for those seeking a second chance.

[complaint_hopeful]

These faculty rebuttals are humorously so cliche. This one quotes an English poem about WW1. I read another that had a couple sentences explaining the French origins of the term austerity. They're going to lose legislators from Sullivan County.

They are. And I don't think PASSHE is hiding the layoffs. Like this plan isn't some trojan horse. They're basically saying, we need to reduce workforce by this percentage.

I honestly think PASSHE is doing so many things at once: Sustainability plans with layoffs, layoffs in Integrations, consolidating services...which by the way they put in a new purchasing system, major Integrations and Vote...and here are multiple hundreds of pages to read over with just a ton of data and info to digest that seemingly lacks some key details...that it's hard to mount a defense to that.

Like I read a lot of - Integrations are bad because of the layoffs. But, the layoffs aren't all part of the Integration. A lot are from the sustainability plans and for schools not in the Triads.

I just don't see the layoffs making the board vote this down. They are well aware that this will result in them. Cost savings are needed, and reduction of employees is an essential part. I hate to say it too, but a lot of the public things of employees at these schools as overpaid. (And we know that layoffs generally pick the least senior/lowest paid employees off in a union.)

[Fightingscot82]

Campbell disputes PASSHE claims about integration

https://www.lockhaven.com/news/local...t-integration/

These faculty rebuttals are humorously so cliche. This one quotes an English poem about WW1. I read another that had a couple sentences explaining the French origins of the term austerity. They're going to lose legislators from Sullivan County.

[Fightingscot82]

Yep. And as enrollment tanks, schools relax standards and take kids with lower grades...that may fail out at a higher percentage and thus hurt retention.

It went both ways. Most PASSHE schools have relaxed standards - and with poor results. Edinboro's plan was actually to raise standards, drop enrollment initially, then climb out with a better reputation and higher retention. It was showing signs of working before the pandemic hit.

Admit percentage doesn't matter much because its relative. If anything it predicts popularity with applicants - selectivity is based on the pool and a school's ability to consistently attract a pool at a certain standard. Harvard takes less than 5% of applicants but I bet 99.9% of applicants would be admitted anywhere. I always say that if Edinboro had 4,000 applicants with a 1,500 SAT and 4.0 high school GPA they'd have a 100% acceptance rate. Highest predictor of college success is still socio-economic status of the family: if parents went to college (increases with number of parent degrees), family income (increases with family income), and high school location (suburbs then rural then urban). High school GPA is the most reliable metric across all factors. SAT is far too related to those factors shown before. There are some schools very similar to

The research shows that admission standard doesn't matter much for PASSHE's core demographic (rural and urban modest & middle income kids) as much as cost and residency. Most kids are leaving because they run out of ways to pay or they don't feel connected. Its why I'm such a big proponent of keeping costs as low as possible especially if it gets kids to live on campus. Commuters are 3x as likely to work over 20 hours a week while attending full time. Research suggests 20 hours a week is the ceiling for students having the life balance needed to balance school & work.

[complaint_hopeful]

Campbell disputes PASSHE claims about integration

https://www.lockhaven.com/news/local...t-integration/

[complaint_hopeful]

But that's the perception - that the work you do for your degree will includes research opportunities and better advanced elective classes than SRU or other similar places. ,It only stands to reason that the intro courses would be harder. While some people will claim Calc I is Calc I no matter where you take it, its pretty clear that the class at CMU and the Class at westmoreland community college are very different. The R1 student perception is that they will be ask to do more harder work, and the number of students that are interested in academic challenges are getting fewer apparently, or at least the ones looking at PASSHE schools are. And given the rush to make articulation agreements with CCs and on-line type schools, who can blame them.

You are right that the PR and admissions does not push this difference - I'm pretty sure they have data that tells them not to. My experience is that IUP does very well with students that take a look at IUP as a possible choice, but poorly getting students to take a look.

Yep. And as enrollment tanks, schools relax standards and take kids with lower grades...that may fail out at a higher percentage and thus hurt retention.

[ironmaniup]

R1 doesn't mean rigor. It's research intensive. That's the ONLY difference in theory between IUP and Slippery Rock. Watch IUPs commercials. It's the same as any other college commercial. Not one thing distinctive about IUP. When we fail to define ourselves, we cede that duty to everyone else. So IUP then also gives in to the public defining them as I Usually Party.

But that's the perception - that the work you do for your degree will includes research opportunities and better advanced elective classes than SRU or other similar places. ,It only stands to reason that the intro courses would be harder. While some people will claim Calc I is Calc I no matter where you take it, its pretty clear that the class at CMU and the Class at westmoreland community college are very different. The R1 student perception is that they will be ask to do more harder work, and the number of students that are interested in academic challenges are getting fewer apparently, or at least the ones looking at PASSHE schools are. And given the rush to make articulation agreements with CCs and on-line type schools, who can blame them.

You are right that the PR and admissions does not push this difference - I'm pretty sure they have data that tells them not to. My experience is that IUP does very well with students that take a look at IUP as a possible choice, but poorly getting students to take a look.