PASSHE Institutions Merging

[iupgroundhog]

The Trump Country folk surrounding IUP will absolutely not just reject it they'll also cry to any right-leaning news source just like the kid thrown out of class a couple years ago. Unfortunately it looks like an unforced error on IUP's part.

Not sure about that. Don't forget that whatever they decide affects the community, not just the campus. I don't know what the vaccination rate is in Indiana Borough and White Twp. but I'm sure those folks don't want to experience another surge, even if it's a mini-surge.

IMO, the best solution is for the powers that be to find a way to require student vaccinations. There is time to do that. The second best option is to allow vaccinated students to attend class mask-free, provided they can document the vaccination. That should encourage unvaccinated students to get vaccinated.

It's all about the vaccination.

[Fightingscot82]

Excess capacity is the end result. Actually closing schools is an effective way of addressing excess capacity but that's not an option. Does anyone believe PASSHE as a system is going to get back to enrolement levels of 10+ years ago based on the changes they are making? Remember, hope is not a belief.

No, but with a better funding formula they can sustain current enrollment. Until rural broadband is improved, geographic access is necessary. I was visiting my in-laws last weekend and the highest speed internet available to them can't handle live streaming like Zoom or two simultaneous streams of recorded video like Netflix.

[Fightingscot82]

And, when you add it all up, it says we just have too many state schools in PA.

Too many 4 year schools. Too many state-funded schools and way too many private schools. PA has roughly the same number of 4-year schools as New York with nearly half the population.

[boatcapt]

And, when you add it all up, it says we just have too many state schools in PA.

Excess capacity is the end result. Actually closing schools is an effective way of addressing excess capacity but that's not an option. Does anyone believe PASSHE as a system is going to get back to enrolement levels of 10+ years ago based on the changes they are making? Remember, hope is not a belief.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

There's not excess capacity if we recognize that adult learners are a real market and the way of the future. Beyond tech and trades, very few fields have pathways that avoid college credentials. Excess capacity for traditional-aged students who plan to live on on campus.

Student debt is MUCH higher than previous generations but hasn't changed much in the last 10-15 years. Most student loan debt is held by people whose tuition costs crazy sums of money: doctors and lawyers. Less than 5% of all bachelors degree holders have $100k+ in student loans and when you remove those with MD and JD debt, its less than 1%.

The biggest driver of Millennial and Gen Z debt is decreased state funding and construction debt. Boomer managers for years pushed renovations and construction to pad resumes and thinking it would give that school a leg up on its competition. It backfired because all the competition was doing the same thing.

Small sample size but I personally know several kids (friends children) who are attending Duquesne and other similar schools ... with majors like nursing, marketing, etc. Granted, their parents largely look down at us lowly state schools, but the funny thing is the Duquesne nurse and the IUP nurse are going to get the same job and make the same amount of money.

[Fightingscot82]

I agree that now is probably the normal level but the future HS graduation numbers are disturbing.

Not unique to this situation, but folks always want to find the single "reason" for a negative situation when the real answer is often very complex. Is it lack of PA HS graduates? Yes, but it is so much more including higher tuitions, skyrocketting student debt, competition from the trades, competition from discounted private schools, stagnate state budgets, and a realization that you really don't need a bachelors degree to succeed.

At the end of the day, all the reasons manafest in excess capacity.

There's not excess capacity if we recognize that adult learners are a real market and the way of the future. Beyond tech and trades, very few fields have pathways that avoid college credentials. Excess capacity for traditional-aged students who plan to live on on campus.

Student debt is MUCH higher than previous generations but hasn't changed much in the last 10-15 years. Most student loan debt is held by people whose tuition costs crazy sums of money: doctors and lawyers. Less than 5% of all bachelors degree holders have $100k+ in student loans and when you remove those with MD and JD debt, its less than 1%.

The biggest driver of Millennial and Gen Z debt is decreased state funding and construction debt. Boomer managers for years pushed renovations and construction to pad resumes and thinking it would give that school a leg up on its competition. It backfired because all the competition was doing the same thing.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

I agree that now is probably the normal level but the future HS graduation numbers are disturbing.

Not unique to this situation, but folks always want to find the single "reason" for a negative situation when the real answer is often very complex. Is it lack of PA HS graduates? Yes, but it is so much more including higher tuitions, skyrocketting student debt, competition from the trades, competition from discounted private schools, stagnate state budgets, and a realization that you really don't need a bachelors degree to succeed.

At the end of the day, all the reasons manafest in excess capacity.

And, when you add it all up, it says we just have too many state schools in PA.

[boatcapt]

I tend to think the enrollment now is the 'normal' level for PASSHE and that the 2010 level was due to the education bubble.

I am sure that some kids choose to work on gas lines or other areas too. I just don't think it's a main factor. It's demographic, cost, brand, etc.

I agree that now is probably the normal level but the future HS graduation numbers are disturbing.

Not unique to this situation, but folks always want to find the single "reason" for a negative situation when the real answer is often very complex. Is it lack of PA HS graduates? Yes, but it is so much more including higher tuitions, skyrocketting student debt, competition from the trades, competition from discounted private schools, stagnate state budgets, and a realization that you really don't need a bachelors degree to succeed.

At the end of the day, all the reasons manafest in excess capacity.

[Fightingscot82]

to ease certain people's fears, I guess. My gut feeling is that there are a small but vocal group of Faculty and parents expressing their fear for the upcoming Fall semester, I expect it to change since if the state mandates are over at that point, it will be pointless after the first weekend, and difficult to enforce. I doubt it will have much impact on enrollment one way or another.

The Trump Country folk surrounding IUP will absolutely not just reject it they'll also cry to any right-leaning news source just like the kid thrown out of class a couple years ago. Unfortunately it looks like an unforced error on IUP's part.

[ironmaniup]

Are they required to wear them in the campus-owned dorms, too?

There won't be a mask seen in town other than those classrooms so what's the freaking point?

to ease certain people's fears, I guess. My gut feeling is that there are a small but vocal group of Faculty and parents expressing their fear for the upcoming Fall semester, I expect it to change since if the state mandates are over at that point, it will be pointless after the first weekend, and difficult to enforce. I doubt it will have much impact on enrollment one way or another.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

I would imagine that indoors on campus would cover housing. Now, in a room yourself...people likely won't wear them.

But yes...anywhere they go won't require masks...except on campus indoors. Seems pointless.

It's time to put the pandemic in the rear view mirror...and not try to cling to it.

I can already see it now at Miller Stadium ... every 6th seat and a mask requirement.

[complaint_hopeful]

I would imagine that indoors on campus would cover housing. Now, in a room yourself...people likely won't wear them.

But yes...anywhere they go won't require masks...except on campus indoors. Seems pointless.

It's time to put the pandemic in the rear view mirror...and not try to cling to it.

[Fightingscot82]

Are they required to wear them in the campus-owned dorms, too?

There won't be a mask seen in town other than those classrooms so what's the freaking point?

I bet they'll be required for indoor common spaces similar to what we had until this month. But enforcement is something I don't get. If campus being public land means state law leads policy (for example you can carry outdoors on PASSHE campuses) then I don't see how they can enforce or even enact this policy. I think its 100% reasonable to require students living in the dorms to have the vaccine or complete a waiver just like they do for meningitis. College students live, learn, and socialize in groups and this is a communicable virus.

However, this article's author does have a reputation for unintentionally making a mountain out of a molehill. He's the only full-time higher ed beat reporter on this side of the state. His daughter attends Edinboro. He sometimes has to go finding stories to write and PASSHE can't block him from getting info (the unions blab & 99% of operations are subject to FOIA). Its possible that someone at IUP tipped him off to this issue (when probed IUP says nothing is final) and he ran with it.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

The being forced to wear masks is the part that might cost students.

I don't get it. So if I'm vaccinated, and the student next to me isnt...why do either of us need masks? I'm protected from them. They're protected from me...but not other unvaccinated people. Same as going to Walmart or any other place.

Now if a bad variant comes out, this might all change.

Are they required to wear them in the campus-owned dorms, too?

There won't be a mask seen in town other than those classrooms so what's the freaking point?

[Fightingscot82]

What bothers me about the salary...is they are VP positions duplicated at PASSHE who has no students. Then, these people basically get to cherry pick what they work on and let schools make dumb decisions and do their own thing. Then, when the dumb decision is called out...pr says that schools make their own decisions.

Then, why have a VP of <insert name> at PASSHE if the campus VP and President make the decisions?

And ultimately the schools get charged back for these people. If they provided value, it would be a different story.

The VPs at the campus level manage divisions of the individual university. Management structure is functional similar to the military. Title/rank changes in the management/staff part of higher ed isn't earned without a vacancy. The Vice Chancellors at the PASSHE level manage system-wide initiatives. They don't dictate policy. The system is not very systemic (something Greenstein actually talked about when he arrived) like SUNY. Most of the PASSHE managers are report makers and number crunchers. The only ones that seem to truly dictate policy (indirectly) are the in house attorneys. Given the lack of innovation & uniformity throughout the industry, there are a lot of people who don't know much about how their counterparts do the same job.