PASSHE Institutions Merging

[IUPbigINDIANS]

All teams at the same level (D1, DII, D3)...Yep with the D1 exceptions you note. Buuuuutttttt...If a school downgraded to SPRINT football, they could stay at DII. From a dollars and cents standpoint, it makes sense...100 tuition paying players, cheaper coaching staffs and a better ability to control travel expenses.

I personally believe that the combined schools are going to treat athletics the same way they apparently are going to treat academics...one consolidated program with little if any overlap. For example, one campus will house the football team, another the basketball team, etc, etc. One AD with "assistant AD's" at the two campuses were the actual AD is housed. For football, I would think Bloom and Cal will house the football team.

That seems to make sense ... but imagine a 6,000 seat, state of the art basketball arena in the center of the Cal campus used for intramurals.

Granted, only about 200 people go to the Vulcan home games. But, what in the world else do you do with that thing?

Clarion also just did a $72m upgrade on Tippin Gymnasium last year.

Quite a mess for them to sort out.

My opinion: Cal keeps men's basketball. Clarion gets football. Edinboro gets women's basketball. Of course, the Cal people would probably pick their well-established women's basketball program over their men's team.

[boatcapt]

Just to remind everyone, all programs must compete in the same NCAA classification. So all sports must compete at the D1, D2, or D3 levels. Schools can apply to "play up" in one sport (usually wrestling and ice hockey) but you can't "play down".

Also, the PASSHE system requires athletic aid to be funded with external dollars. So every athletic scholarship dollar comes from a donation, a fundraiser, or gameday revenue. Housing and meal plan waivers are allowed because they're auxiliary fees. All this means that dropping to D3 doesn't mean instant savings over D2. Our conference is relatively compact and our schools don't have the money to pay an exit fee ($80k) and play an independent schedule while searching for a conference.

All teams at the same level (D1, DII, D3)...Yep with the D1 exceptions you note. Buuuuutttttt...If a school downgraded to SPRINT football, they could stay at DII. From a dollars and cents standpoint, it makes sense...100 tuition paying players, cheaper coaching staffs and a better ability to control travel expenses.

I personally believe that the combined schools are going to treat athletics the same way they apparently are going to treat academics...one consolidated program with little if any overlap. For example, one campus will house the football team, another the basketball team, etc, etc. One AD with "assistant AD's" at the two campuses were the actual AD is housed. For football, I would think Bloom and Cal will house the football team.

[shipfbfan1]

Just to remind everyone, all programs must compete in the same NCAA classification. So all sports must compete at the D1, D2, or D3 levels. Schools can apply to "play up" in one sport (usually wrestling and ice hockey) but you can't "play down".

Also, the PASSHE system requires athletic aid to be funded with external dollars. So every athletic scholarship dollar comes from a donation, a fundraiser, or gameday revenue. Housing and meal plan waivers are allowed because they're auxiliary fees. All this means that dropping to D3 doesn't mean instant savings over D2. Our conference is relatively compact and our schools don't have the money to pay an exit fee ($80k) and play an independent schedule while searching for a conference.

Am I correct in that the sport you choose to play up a level can't be basketball, baseball or football? That would throw the title IX numbers completely off

[Fightingscot82]

Just to remind everyone, all programs must compete in the same NCAA classification. So all sports must compete at the D1, D2, or D3 levels. Schools can apply to "play up" in one sport (usually wrestling and ice hockey) but you can't "play down".

Also, the PASSHE system requires athletic aid to be funded with external dollars. So every athletic scholarship dollar comes from a donation, a fundraiser, or gameday revenue. Housing and meal plan waivers are allowed because they're auxiliary fees. All this means that dropping to D3 doesn't mean instant savings over D2. Our conference is relatively compact and our schools don't have the money to pay an exit fee ($80k) and play an independent schedule while searching for a conference.

[CALUPA69]

It's just hard to justify the threesome keeping three varsity football teams.

Presumably of the two triples, CAL and BLOOM would be the teams to carry on at the D2 level. IMO Sprint FB would be a nice option for the other three schools unless they wanted to explore D3.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

However, as described in the PASSHE document, how ROI is measured is a complex issue.

Title IX is a major issue (as always). Several of these "triad" schools have Title IX issues already. The merger can be a way to remedy that. If they were to adhere to a strict financial ROI model it would definitely discriminate against women's sports.

It will be interesting to see how they handle the 5 D1 sports involved.

When I first read this I thought that would be terrible for Clarion, Edinboro and Lock Haven. But, Sprint Football is better than no football. And, it keeps a roster full of students paying their own way. Your current staff of coaches likely all leaves (or is let go). Sprint coaches, I assume, are probably really young guys looking for a first job in coaching -- or, really old guys looking for a last job in coaching. Either way, the salary is much less. I also assume they have less (and drastically less paid) assistants.

Being honest, I usually forget Mansfield even has a Sprint team. Is there any interest in it from the community?

I'd assume most of the remaining varsity players all transfer mostly to schools in the PSAC. IUP and SRU will have a bidding war over some of the top ones.

It's just hard to justify the threesome keeping three varsity football teams.

[ironmaniup]

Many variables in determining ROI. Much will depend on if they have a preconcieved outcome in mind and then develop a process that get's them to the desired end state OR do they develop the process and then let the final numbers decide. Also important that they develop one process that is applied to each of the six schools equally.

There are state directives on how to calculate the ROI. Its also built in to the software they purchased to do the financial analysis. Everyone knows that the system they use does not work well for small departments, as the ROI varies wildly from year to year. By small I mean 100 or less students. Something like having 20% of a team take a class from an old full professor, in a small class, instead of the same course from an adjunct instructor in a huge class could make a huge difference. This varies from year to year, so they assume it averages out - but it doesn't because course selection by students is not random. In the end, someone can always step in and justify something that has low ROI, and include intangibles.

However, I sadly think that PASSHE is at the point that those in charge don't believe increasing enrollment is an option to solve the currrent crisis, and are in only cost cutting mode. So even if there is an argument that enrollment will be slightly higher because of athletics, it isn't enough to make a difference in an environment where you are losing 50% of your students in 10 years, and could saddle you with costs down the road if the ROI gets lower since costs of running the program will probably increase significantly over the next few years.

[Fightingscot82]

But would they lose 75-100 students if they cut football or would it be some subset of that? Quite a few of the non-scolly players end up going to their particular school because they are the only place that offered them a football slot. Absent another walk-on offer, they are probably going to go anyway. If a school drops football, yes, their enrolement will drop...but I don't think it drops by 100.

Dropping to Sprint or perhaps D3 at a couple of schools is an interesting proposition. You are cutting some of the cost of coaching overhead...also depending on how you schedule, you could save on travel costs AND if you maintain the roster at 100 players, you net the same tuition going to the school. On the down side you probably effect alumni donations for at least a few years. The question is does the decreased cost of dropping to D3 OR Sprint offset the decline in alumni donations?

Yeah I think most do leave if they can continue to play football elsewhere. The walk on or small money kid from a nearby high school might stay. But there are a lot of D3 football programs looking for players every year.

[boatcapt]

So... the larger the roster is the less likely the sport is to be dropped?

I'm going to stick with the Title IX implications. By fielding a football team and creating 80 or so "opportunities" for male athletes, how many women's sports have to be fielded to offset FB on gender?

I think when you are looking at number of tuition paying students, then yes, size does matter. Buuuuuttttt...an equalizing factor is the high administrative cost of football (equipment, facilities, coaching staffs, etc).

[boatcapt]

How they decide to do the ROI is going to be the key, and its really tricky. First, the ROI for students normally depends on which classes they take, I suspect Athletes take a schedule that is more costly than average (more small classes), but I don't know. They do take fewer classes often. So the ROI is tuition - cost to offer specific classes + an administrative fee. Will this be the standard one used for academic departments ? You could argue it should be higher, since there are additional administrators, specifically for athletics, + the admins for academics. It could also be lower. since they may just claim the admin costs are part of the academic end. And then how do you figure the value of athletics for fund raising. Like most cases, they make a gut level decision, and make the numbers come out to support it later.

Many variables in determining ROI. Much will depend on if they have a preconcieved outcome in mind and then develop a process that get's them to the desired end state OR do they develop the process and then let the final numbers decide. Also important that they develop one process that is applied to each of the six schools equally.

[boatcapt]

If football brings in $750k in tuition & fees above expenses, they'd be stupid to cut it. Reducing football roster spots by 33% is kissing 75-100 students goodbye.

Dropping football to sprint may not save much. I guess you could cut coaching staff. There's longer travel involved and you basically punt on football alumni fundraising. Both Edinboro and Clarion have strong football alumni groups. Unsure about Cal. I heard from multiple sources that until the integration, the last two Mansfield presidents were researching a return to D2 football as a strategy to grow enrollment. Granted, none were Mansfield sources.

Basketball is an easy target because salary is generally expensive and there's lots of travel for a small roster. But I can't think of one school that has cut basketball. So we'll more likely see coaching staffs and operating expenses reduced to bare bones. Easier to cut $50k by eliminating an assistant coach than finding $50k in operating expenses.

But would they lose 75-100 students if they cut football or would it be some subset of that? Quite a few of the non-scolly players end up going to their particular school because they are the only place that offered them a football slot. Absent another walk-on offer, they are probably going to go anyway. If a school drops football, yes, their enrolement will drop...but I don't think it drops by 100.

Dropping to Sprint or perhaps D3 at a couple of schools is an interesting proposition. You are cutting some of the cost of coaching overhead...also depending on how you schedule, you could save on travel costs AND if you maintain the roster at 100 players, you net the same tuition going to the school. On the down side you probably effect alumni donations for at least a few years. The question is does the decreased cost of dropping to D3 OR Sprint offset the decline in alumni donations?

[boatcapt]

I've hashed out the case for football several times. Basketball is a losing program at most schools but it also generates gameday revenue that funds scholarships for other sports. So if you can run a lean basketball program it benefits the entire department. IUP may be the exception that their increased spending is justified by making more revenue. Edinboro basketball also gets 25-30 stories on 3 TV channels in Erie. That's something the other two schools can't offer. If Clarion didn't just have a total refurbishment of their main facility, they'd be in defensive situation with athletics.

I wonder how many academic programs are truly profitable when you start factoring in the facility costs? For example, for schools with music departments, when you factor in the cost of maintaining the band facilities and equipment, do they truly provide a positive ROI?

From what I have read about these two mergers, the big cost saving measure they talk about is eliminating program duplication, efficiencies earned by shared services and one administration with a common budget. If you use that as a guide, would it be more expensive to as a grouping to run three separate football programs and three distinct basketball programs OR would it be more efficient for each of these groupings to have one football and one basketball program?

[Fightingscot82]

Then there is nothing to worry about. No athletic programs will be cut at any of the colleges. All set for each university grouping having 3 football programs...3 men's and women's basketball teams, etc!

I've hashed out the case for football several times. Basketball is a losing program at most schools but it also generates gameday revenue that funds scholarships for other sports. So if you can run a lean basketball program it benefits the entire department. IUP may be the exception that their increased spending is justified by making more revenue. Edinboro basketball also gets 25-30 stories on 3 TV channels in Erie. That's something the other two schools can't offer. If Clarion didn't just have a total refurbishment of their main facility, they'd be in defensive situation with athletics.

[boatcapt]

The Athletics working group for the West:

Len Cullo, Vice President Finance + Administration, Clarion
Karen Hjerpe, Athletic Director, Cal U
Bob Mehalik, NCAA Faculty Athletic Representative, Cal U
Jenni Morison, Associate Athletic Director, Cal U
DJ Bevevino, Associate Athletic Director, Clarion
Sean Fagan, Sports Information Director, Clarion
Wendy Snodgrass, Director of Intercollegiate Athletics, Clarion
Andrew Matt, Title IX Coordinator & Investigator, Edinboro
Chad Williams, Associate Athletic Director, Edinboro
Katherine Robbins, Director of Athletics, Edinboro

Then there is nothing to worry about. No athletic programs will be cut at any of the colleges. All set for each university grouping having 3 football programs...3 men's and women's basketball teams, etc!

[Fightingscot82]

Your putting the ROI determination for athletics largely in the hands of academics (or former academics who are now administrators). Some are "pro athletic" but there are quite a few academics that think athletics is nothing but a dollar suck that takes $ from academic programs. They will attempt to frame the ROI measurements in a manner that devalues athletics and makes it appear more expensive than maybe it is. They will want to include things such as maintenance of the physical plant to include the stadium, practice field, field houses, locker rooms, etc...Alumni donations that now go to athletics that would be reprogrammed to academics...the cost of Title IX compliance...etc, etc, etc.

The Athletics working group for the West:

Len Cullo, Vice President Finance + Administration, Clarion
Karen Hjerpe, Athletic Director, Cal U
Bob Mehalik, NCAA Faculty Athletic Representative, Cal U
Jenni Morison, Associate Athletic Director, Cal U
DJ Bevevino, Associate Athletic Director, Clarion
Sean Fagan, Sports Information Director, Clarion
Wendy Snodgrass, Director of Intercollegiate Athletics, Clarion
Andrew Matt, Title IX Coordinator & Investigator, Edinboro
Chad Williams, Associate Athletic Director, Edinboro
Katherine Robbins, Director of Athletics, Edinboro