PASSHE Institutions Merging

[iupgroundhog]

I don't think IUP can ever be perceived as "quasi-elite." They have to be perceived as "just as good for less" for the bulk of universities. NOBODY considering truly elite schools ever considers IUP at the same time. That's not a knock on IUP. Its just different worlds. But IUP can cut into Pitt, Penn State, and privates with a significant cost savings that right now doesn't exist and with better student recruiting.

PASSHE schools are not supposed to be elite or quasi-elite.

[Fightingscot82]

Improving perceived educational quality is a very difficult process when a school is bleeding $'s. It's not like you flip a switch and high academic potential students are going to say, OHHH, you emphasize academics now! Guess I'll go to your august institution! It is a process that would be measured in YEARS and might never be successful. I don't think any PASSHE school except maybe WCU has the time, money or enrollment (school will probably shed another 30% of it's current and future enrollment) to accomplish such a major transition from bargin basement to quasi elite.

I don't think IUP can ever be perceived as "quasi-elite." They have to be perceived as "just as good for less" for the bulk of universities. NOBODY considering truly elite schools ever considers IUP at the same time. That's not a knock on IUP. Its just different worlds. But IUP can cut into Pitt, Penn State, and privates with a significant cost savings that right now doesn't exist and with better student recruiting.

[boatcapt]

CMU is elite academic territory. The buildings generally don't attract the students. But CMU like its history is two very different schools. The science and tech side gets all the headlines but its also an elite arts school. If a school is desirable, facilities don't matter as much. A whole lot of Penn State's dorms suck. They're no better than the "old" dorms at PASSHE schools. But they don't need to update them as much because people will subject themselves to such if it means attending their top choice school.

I agree that the main issue is losing students to other schools who are priced a tiny bit above. I always use a car analogy - maybe in this instance its Toyota Avalon vs Lexus ES. Essentially the same car but for 10% more you can a luxury badge on that car. Same goes for IUP vs Behrend and privates. Middling privates have a superiority complex over IUP - when I worked at RMU senior administrators would always joke that when they kicked out a student they should walk off campus with an IUP transfer application.

IUP admissions (and everyone) has to transition from generating applications then processing those applications and hoping accepts turn into deposits to a process more like athletic recruiting. Make students feel wanted. We've gotta go back to admissions interviews (maybe in exchange for test-optional admission). Explain how the pricing works - especially vs privates. That scholarship amount may be much smaller but its real dollars donated by a real person, not a coupon code in the accounting software. Probably get more personal with the campus visit too. Get students in front of faculty in the awesome new facility. Get groups of high school students to visit for games, not Homecoming and State Patties Day. The Kopchicks talking about their IUP education is great. Chad Hurley talking about the mentorship he received from Ed Fry is great. IUP is a great school at a great value. Gotta sell it.

Improving perceived educational quality is a very difficult process when a school is bleeding $'s. It's not like you flip a switch and high academic potential students are going to say, OHHH, you emphasize academics now! Guess I'll go to your august institution! It is a process that would be measured in YEARS and might never be successful. I don't think any PASSHE school except maybe WCU has the time, money or enrollment (school will probably shed another 30% of it's current and future enrollment) to accomplish such a major transition from bargin basement to quasi elite.

[Fightingscot82]

I don't think Cal and IUP are competing for many students...so which of the 2 have the most expensive building doesn't matter. I think the main competition is non-passhe schools.

A school like cmu has and old campus and turns away many students.

CMU is elite academic territory. The buildings generally don't attract the students. But CMU like its history is two very different schools. The science and tech side gets all the headlines but its also an elite arts school. If a school is desirable, facilities don't matter as much. A whole lot of Penn State's dorms suck. They're no better than the "old" dorms at PASSHE schools. But they don't need to update them as much because people will subject themselves to such if it means attending their top choice school.

I agree that the main issue is losing students to other schools who are priced a tiny bit above. I always use a car analogy - maybe in this instance its Toyota Avalon vs Lexus ES. Essentially the same car but for 10% more you can a luxury badge on that car. Same goes for IUP vs Behrend and privates. Middling privates have a superiority complex over IUP - when I worked at RMU senior administrators would always joke that when they kicked out a student they should walk off campus with an IUP transfer application.

IUP admissions (and everyone) has to transition from generating applications then processing those applications and hoping accepts turn into deposits to a process more like athletic recruiting. Make students feel wanted. We've gotta go back to admissions interviews (maybe in exchange for test-optional admission). Explain how the pricing works - especially vs privates. That scholarship amount may be much smaller but its real dollars donated by a real person, not a coupon code in the accounting software. Probably get more personal with the campus visit too. Get students in front of faculty in the awesome new facility. Get groups of high school students to visit for games, not Homecoming and State Patties Day. The Kopchicks talking about their IUP education is great. Chad Hurley talking about the mentorship he received from Ed Fry is great. IUP is a great school at a great value. Gotta sell it.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

I don't think Cal and IUP are competing for many students...so which of the 2 have the most expensive building doesn't matter. I think the main competition is non-passhe schools.

A school like cmu has and old campus and turns away many students.

Well, we aren't competing for the same students as Carnegie Mellon. Lol.

[ironmaniup]

I don't think Cal and IUP are competing for many students...so which of the 2 have the most expensive building doesn't matter. I think the main competition is non-passhe schools.

A school like cmu has and old campus and turns away many students.

[complaint_hopeful]

I don't think Cal and IUP are competing for many students...so which of the 2 have the most expensive building doesn't matter. I think the main competition is non-passhe schools.

A school like cmu has and old campus and turns away many students.

[Fightingscot82]

First of all, what you're engaging in is pure conjecture. In 5 years we should know how successful it was bringing in qualified students.

Cal has some strong technical programs and a new building but as has been pointed out it's a fraction of what the IUP building is. Edinboro renovated their science building within the last 10 years. That's nice but it's not part of the conversation.

I have criticized Driscoll for my perceptions that he is not a good promoter. But the thing is he is a scientist/engineer and strongly oriented that way and he is fully invested in this new building and the STEM orientation. I think it has to be viewed as a plus and that's where I will leave it.

I agree with you about Driscoll but I don't believe you need a particularly engaging president to be marketed well. And to be honest, I don't think IUP is marketed poorly. I think universities tend to do a TERRIBLE job of marketing. Driscoll's STEM background probably helped make that donation happen and he most likely had excellent insight on its design.

I still stand by that this building while impressive won't move the needle. IUP has to get aggressive with recruiting students. Not generating visits and applications. Getting students to commit and enroll. I don't think that's unique to IUP either.

[iupgroundhog]

I mentioned before that Cal has a new science building and Edinboro's is less than 10 years old (although a major reno/expansion not brand new). Without laying out each building its hard to say that IUP's is superior to anything other than its predecessor.

First of all, what you're engaging in is pure conjecture. In 5 years we should know how successful it was bringing in qualified students.

Cal has some strong technical programs and a new building but as has been pointed out it's a fraction of what the IUP building is. Edinboro renovated their science building within the last 10 years. That's nice but it's not part of the conversation.

I have criticized Driscoll for my perceptions that he is not a good promoter. But the thing is he is a scientist/engineer and strongly oriented that way and he is fully invested in this new building and the STEM orientation. I think it has to be viewed as a plus and that's where I will leave it.

[Fightingscot82]

Exactly. Everything about the KCAC was ideal and otherwise done right.

[IUPNation]

I'd argue that the Angelodome isn't a less impressive facility. On the outside, its the most impressive facility in PASSHE. The grand lobby is nice too. The arena looks like they ran out of money and something wasn't built. Plus its endless chairs from floor to ceiling.

The KCAC looks just fine on the outside but is pretty basic on the inside. The two things the KCAC got right was having big conference/convention spaces and a more visually appealing arena. Cal has that empty end with pipe & drape curtain behind the goal. IUP has bleacher seating and a video board (vs Cal's hanging video board).

From a business perspective, it makes way more sense for IUP to have that facility than Cal. But the events are really at the expense of the arena in Johnstown. There was nothing for Cal to take business from or to really even develop. If anything, there are too many concert & event arenas within an hour of the city.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

That's an interesting comparison. The AngeloDome is very nice. It's significantly bigger than the KCAC. It's actually incredible how large it is the first time you walk down to the court and look up. It's also incredible to be in a 6,000 seat arena with 153 fans in the stands. It's the ultimate shrine in many ways to the Angelo Era. Cal doesn't have the space IUP does and the physical location of the AngeloDome is pretty overpowering when you're on campus. It's the sole focal point.

What's ironic is -- of the old school gyms in the PSAC -- Cal's Hamer Hall (my opinion) was far and away the best. It was an intimidating venue. Loud as could be.

IUP Basketball had been good for a very long time prior to the KCAC but when the new venue opened it just elevated the program. I always say on here when you're there on a Saturday night ... you sure don't think you're at a D2 game. It's a D1 arena with a (mid-major) D1 atmosphere. Joe has really built up a following, too. That's the place to be on game nights.

Cal built that gigantic arena and then basically punted men's basketball. The ladies draw much better at Cal than the men. It's one of the only places that may get 1,500 for the ladies game and then there's 160 left when the men's game tips. I've been there and seen it happen several times. It's hard to pinpoint exactly what happened to Cal's men's program. They had one of the biggest followings around from the early 90s in to the early 00s. Then it was just gone. Bill Brown hung around too long. That didn't help. I don't know how long Danny Sancomb (who was a terrific hire, btw) will stay down there. The bridge coach in between, Kent McBride, ... was what it was.

[Fightingscot82]

I'd argue that the Angelodome isn't a less impressive facility. On the outside, its the most impressive facility in PASSHE. The grand lobby is nice too. The arena looks like they ran out of money and something wasn't built. Plus its endless chairs from floor to ceiling.

The KCAC looks just fine on the outside but is pretty basic on the inside. The two things the KCAC got right was having big conference/convention spaces and a more visually appealing arena. Cal has that empty end with pipe & drape curtain behind the goal. IUP has bleacher seating and a video board (vs Cal's hanging video board).

From a business perspective, it makes way more sense for IUP to have that facility than Cal. But the events are really at the expense of the arena in Johnstown. There was nothing for Cal to take business from or to really even develop. If anything, there are too many concert & event arenas within an hour of the city.

[IUPNation]

Well, Cal's science building was 37 M, Kopchick Hall is 90 M so there's that. Its at least a lot bigger.

[ironmaniup]

I mentioned before that Cal has a new science building and Edinboro's is less than 10 years old (although a major reno/expansion not brand new). Without laying out each building its hard to say that IUP's is superior to anything other than its predecessor.

Well, Cal's science building was 37 M, Kopchick Hall is 90 M so there's that. Its at least a lot bigger.