PASSHE Institutions Merging

[iupgroundhog]

I'm sure I could dig something up - but with most higher ed research the data is skewed by the type of school. Very little research is done on public regionals like IUP. Most studies are done at big public flagships. Anecdotally, I didn't see it. Students at multiple schools went through the loops and jumped the hurdles necessary to keep the honors scholarship and graduate with honors.

I guess it's the same as university status in a way. At one time university status meant something. Now, it's just an updated word for a college. I guess with the proliferation of HC's it gets watered down. Everybody wants to have one.

[iupgroundhog]

PASSHE did a dump of "public comments" on integration: https://www.passhe.edu/PublicComment...ch01_FINAL.pdf

Just skimmed through some of them. I would expect most comments to be in opposition but what is striking is the cogence of the vast majority of them. So many of them spell out the opposition in great detail. I don't think greenstein and the BOG (or the legislature) have answers for most of it.

[iupgroundhog]

I'm sure I could dig something up - but with most higher ed research the data is skewed by the type of school. Very little research is done on public regionals like IUP. Most studies are done at big public flagships. Anecdotally, I didn't see it. Students at multiple schools went through the loops and jumped the hurdles necessary to keep the honors scholarship and graduate with honors.

I'm talking about studies comparing career/financial performance of HC students to the general student population WITHIN THE SAME SCHOOL. To determine value-added, that is the appropriate comparison and I'm virtually certain they perform better so there is value-added.

[Fightingscot82]

Are there studies that measure the career and financial success of HC students, say, 10 years removed from their undergrad graduation? I am sure there are. Do the HC students perform at a higher level, the same, or lower level than the general student population? The results of those studies will provide the answer to whether there is value-added.in career terms.

I'm sure I could dig something up - but with most higher ed research the data is skewed by the type of school. Very little research is done on public regionals like IUP. Most studies are done at big public flagships. Anecdotally, I didn't see it. Students at multiple schools went through the loops and jumped the hurdles necessary to keep the honors scholarship and graduate with honors.

[Fightingscot82]

Ok, I've been wrong before. However, I'm not totally sold. If there is no added value why do top students continue to enroll. My impression is that it's a hyper-intensive experience and that alone will, in most cases, help students in their post-college endeavors whether it's further education or job-related.

In my experience, they attract great students where the extra honors money/perks make an IUP degree so much less expensive than the other schools it sways their decision.

[iupgroundhog]

Exactly. If they don't see the point it's ignored. TBH, I have yet to see an honors college or honors program provide something with a true value added across the board from a career perspective.

Are there studies that measure the career and financial success of HC students, say, 10 years removed from their undergrad graduation? I am sure there are. Do the HC students perform at a higher level, the same, or lower level than the general student population? The results of those studies will provide the answer to whether there is value-added.in career terms.

[iupgroundhog]

With almost every school having an honors college these days, and no easy way to judge the differences between them, professional schools don't use participation in these programs as a factor in their decision. Many students are deciding that they'd rather take easier courses and protect their GPA than have the HC tag. Of course, most things you get from an HC are personal enrichment, and flexibility, not so much career help. Many (not all) Students these days would rather have only the courses needed to get into their specific professional school and don't value the flexibility to change their minds. Needless to say, that turns out to be a bad decision for many, but for the ones it works for, its really efficient.

Ok, I've been wrong before. However, I'm not totally sold. If there is no added value why do top students continue to enroll. My impression is that it's a hyper-intensive experience and that alone will, in most cases, help students in their post-college endeavors whether it's further education or job-related.

[Fightingscot82]

PASSHE did a dump of "public comments" on integration: https://www.passhe.edu/PublicComment...ch01_FINAL.pdf

[Fightingscot82]

With almost every school having an honors college these days, and no easy way to judge the differences between them, professional schools don't use participation in these programs as a factor in their decision. Many students are deciding that they'd rather take easier courses and protect their GPA than have the HC tag. Of course, most things you get from an HC are personal enrichment, and flexibility, not so much career help. Many (not all) Students these days would rather have only the courses needed to get into their specific professional school and don't value the flexibility to change their minds. Needless to say, that turns out to be a bad decision for many, but for the ones it works for, its really efficient.

Thanks - that's similar to what I was going for. Unless there's scholarship money tied to it its somewhat unpopular. Some extra programs, speakers, etc. and maybe some special privileges like early scheduling or grouped housing. Not saying anyone is doing a bad job. This generation just doesn't get some of the traditional things and sometimes only begrudgingly goes along because the tangible benefit outweighs their ambivalence. When I was running the a leadership program at RMU, I had at least one student each year tell me they only did the program so they could move in 4 days early.

[IUPNation]

Well, we aren't competing for the same students as Carnegie Mellon. Lol.

[ironmaniup]

Well, from what I've read about the Honors College at IUP (which was one of the first of its kind), there is much value added. The social atmosphere with the other Honors College students, opportunities for independent research, rigorous academic load, and exceptional entrance opportunities to professional schools. Maybe I don't understand the point you are making.

With almost every school having an honors college these days, and no easy way to judge the differences between them, professional schools don't use participation in these programs as a factor in their decision. Many students are deciding that they'd rather take easier courses and protect their GPA than have the HC tag. Of course, most things you get from an HC are personal enrichment, and flexibility, not so much career help. Many (not all) Students these days would rather have only the courses needed to get into their specific professional school and don't value the flexibility to change their minds. Needless to say, that turns out to be a bad decision for many, but for the ones it works for, its really efficient.

[iupgroundhog]

Exactly. If they don't see the point it's ignored. TBH, I have yet to see an honors college or honors program provide something with a true value added across the board from a career perspective.

Well, from what I've read about the Honors College at IUP (which was one of the first of its kind), there is much value added. The social atmosphere with the other Honors College students, opportunities for independent research, rigorous academic load, and exceptional entrance opportunities to professional schools. Maybe I don't understand the point you are making.

[Fightingscot82]

This is essentially the process for recruiting honors college students, as well as other really interested students. Not sure how it scales to the less interested students, or the majors that are already getting 100 or more freshman with 5x as many applications. but any students interested enough to visit will get this kind of treatment at IUP these days. The other thing to consider is which majors have the most losses. Its not at all an across the board decline, but is it changing interest by the student, or something to do with the department ? ? Hard to tell. BTW Gen Z does not seem all that excited about things like Honors colleges, since many see it as extra work they don't need to do to succeed.

Exactly. If they don't see the point it's ignored. TBH, I have yet to see an honors college or honors program provide something with a true value added across the board from a career perspective.

[ironmaniup]

CMU is elite academic territory. The buildings generally don't attract the students. But CMU like its history is two very different schools. The science and tech side gets all the headlines but its also an elite arts school. If a school is desirable, facilities don't matter as much. A whole lot of Penn State's dorms suck. They're no better than the "old" dorms at PASSHE schools. But they don't need to update them as much because people will subject themselves to such if it means attending their top choice school.

I agree that the main issue is losing students to other schools who are priced a tiny bit above. I always use a car analogy - maybe in this instance its Toyota Avalon vs Lexus ES. Essentially the same car but for 10% more you can a luxury badge on that car. Same goes for IUP vs Behrend and privates. Middling privates have a superiority complex over IUP - when I worked at RMU senior administrators would always joke that when they kicked out a student they should walk off campus with an IUP transfer application.

IUP admissions (and everyone) has to transition from generating applications then processing those applications and hoping accepts turn into deposits to a process more like athletic recruiting. Make students feel wanted. We've gotta go back to admissions interviews (maybe in exchange for test-optional admission). Explain how the pricing works - especially vs privates. That scholarship amount may be much smaller but its real dollars donated by a real person, not a coupon code in the accounting software. Probably get more personal with the campus visit too. Get students in front of faculty in the awesome new facility. Get groups of high school students to visit for games, not Homecoming and State Patties Day. The Kopchicks talking about their IUP education is great. Chad Hurley talking about the mentorship he received from Ed Fry is great. IUP is a great school at a great value. Gotta sell it.

This is essentially the process for recruiting honors college students, as well as other really interested students. Not sure how it scales to the less interested students, or the majors that are already getting 100 or more freshman with 5x as many applications. but any students interested enough to visit will get this kind of treatment at IUP these days. The other thing to consider is which majors have the most losses. Its not at all an across the board decline, but is it changing interest by the student, or something to do with the department ? ? Hard to tell. BTW Gen Z does not seem all that excited about things like Honors colleges, since many see it as extra work they don't need to do to succeed.

[Fightingscot82]

PASSHE schools are not supposed to be elite or quasi-elite.

100% agree