PASSHE Institutions Merging

[Fightingscot82]

When IUP played at Clarion this winter in hoops I walked the campus before the game. Total ghost town. That used to be a wild little town.

My buddy is a Slum Lord there. Four of his five properties have been empty the past 3 years. I always personally liked Clarion but I like the mountain vibe.

If only these kids knew how good the fishing is in the Clarion River. Lol

Edinboro's town is doing alright. They're a small town suburb for Erie plus they have the vacation homes on the lake that in the summer make it like a mini Conneaut Lake.

Unfortunately unless there's some employee accountability (and nobody in the system is set up for that) I don't see this experiment lasting another 5 years. Commonwealth is probably another 5 years beyond that. I don't think the system can afford to have 50% of the campuses under the Cheyney subsidization model.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Tippin was $50M and 100% paid for by the state. Edinboro has had lots of facility improvements and is probably the nicest piece of land of the three. All three campuses have been described to me as Pittsburgh Mills. So dead you have no idea how its operating. Its bad. They can't even fake vibrancy.

When IUP played at Clarion this winter in hoops I walked the campus before the game. Total ghost town. That used to be a wild little town.

My buddy is a Slum Lord there. Four of his five properties have been empty the past 3 years. I always personally liked Clarion but I like the mountain vibe.

If only these kids knew how good the fishing is in the Clarion River. Lol

[Fightingscot82]

And, how many of those 1,600 are athletes? I'd guess a nice percentage.

I'd surely think when these kids (athletes and non-athletes) are visiting other schools, said schools are using the 'triad' against them.

I haven't been to Edinboro in a long time. Cal and Clarion have both made tremendous campus improvements. However, it obviously appears not to be paying off. It does make one wonder why Clarion just did that $80m (roughly) renovation to Tippin Gymnasium with the school in such financial crisis. If Clarion closes, that's going to be the nicest YMCA gym in Pennsylvania.

Tippin was $50M and 100% paid for by the state. Edinboro has had lots of facility improvements and is probably the nicest piece of land of the three. All three campuses have been described to me as Pittsburgh Mills. So dead you have no idea how its operating. Its bad. They can't even fake vibrancy.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Rumors swirling that PASSHE is predicting roughly 1,600 total true freshmen for Penn West in Fall 2023. Total. Between the three campuses. To put this into perspective, in 2013 Edinboro's freshmen class was 1,191. In 2019, the last pre-covid freshman class, Edinboro had 699 - so even that x3 would be 2100. Again, its not a spending problem that can be remedied by cuts & consolidations. They're not able to find & convince new students to attend (or stay). Plus they're still recruiting kids who were in high school during Covid and remembered how terrible online learning is - so why the hell would they attend a school where 75% of your freshmen classes are online?

And, how many of those 1,600 are athletes? I'd guess a nice percentage.

I'd surely think when these kids (athletes and non-athletes) are visiting other schools, said schools are using the 'triad' against them.

I haven't been to Edinboro in a long time. Cal and Clarion have both made tremendous campus improvements. However, it obviously appears not to be paying off. It does make one wonder why Clarion just did that $80m (roughly) renovation to Tippin Gymnasium with the school in such financial crisis. If Clarion closes, that's going to be the nicest YMCA gym in Pennsylvania.

[Fightingscot82]

There is starting to be a degree of worry at other PASSHE schools that if Penn West continues to slip the system will try to bail it out at the expense of some of the system's other schools.

Legally it has to. Its what the system has been doing for Cheyney for the last 10-15 years. But several other schools aren't far behind. Everyone but Slippery Rock and West Chester are using up their reserves to balance the budgets, which is what that's for but year after year you start wearing down that cushion.

[Fightingscot82]

1) The state actually supported state schools to a great extent back then. 2) The 1970s are now about 50 years in the rearview mirror. Time to get moving.

True, although until the early 2000s the majority of alumni were teachers. Any wealth was through family or someone successful leaving education. But even then, the alumni remembered being able to work 10 hours a week to pay their tuition bill and didn't see the point in donating.

[Ship69]

Rumors swirling that PASSHE is predicting roughly 1,600 total true freshmen for Penn West in Fall 2023. Total. Between the three campuses. To put this into perspective, in 2013 Edinboro's freshmen class was 1,191. In 2019, the last pre-covid freshman class, Edinboro had 699 - so even that x3 would be 2100. Again, its not a spending problem that can be remedied by cuts & consolidations. They're not able to find & convince new students to attend (or stay). Plus they're still recruiting kids who were in high school during Covid and remembered how terrible online learning is - so why the hell would they attend a school where 75% of your freshmen classes are online?

There is starting to be a degree of worry at other PASSHE schools that if Penn West continues to slip the system will try to bail it out at the expense of some of the system's other schools.

[Ship69]

They weren't even allowed to solicit donations or accept endowed gifts until the 1970s.

1) The state actually supported state schools to a great extent back then. 2) The 1970s are now about 50 years in the rearview mirror. Time to get moving.

[Fightingscot82]

Rumors swirling that PASSHE is predicting roughly 1,600 total true freshmen for Penn West in Fall 2023. Total. Between the three campuses. To put this into perspective, in 2013 Edinboro's freshmen class was 1,191. In 2019, the last pre-covid freshman class, Edinboro had 699 - so even that x3 would be 2100. Again, its not a spending problem that can be remedied by cuts & consolidations. They're not able to find & convince new students to attend (or stay). Plus they're still recruiting kids who were in high school during Covid and remembered how terrible online learning is - so why the hell would they attend a school where 75% of your freshmen classes are online?

[Fightingscot82]

Correct. Why not? I think the reason is that there were so many PA state schools.

Because of Pennsylvania giving bankrupt privates Pitt and Temple lifelong bailouts created a second tier of "state" comprehensives, similar to the model of what Ohio did when it took on Akron, Cincinnati, Toledo, and Youngstown in the 60s and 70s (although Akron & Toledo were owned/operated by their cities). I don't think the public would support it either, because to get back on that track IUP would have to retool and reinvest in some things its had to draw down over the last few decades. If Pennsylvania hadn't taken on Pitt & Temple (or jettisoned them once they were back on sure footing), yes, I think it could have been possible. Some former state regionals have been late the the small research university game like Georgia Southern and North Texas and some of the California State University campuses like San Diego. California and Texas are also states with competing state university systems - but they're also states with significantly more higher ed funding.

[iupgroundhog]

Right. But I don't think there was a path for IUP to end up like the Ohio or Michigan regionals.

Correct. Why not? I think the reason is that there were so many PA state schools.

[Fightingscot82]

That's a lot of "if's." The comprehensive university was a national trend and it worked until about 2010. Of course, prior to PASSHE, there was only 1 "comprehensive" university in the system.

Right. But I don't think there was a path for IUP to end up like the Ohio or Michigan regionals.

[Bart]

IUP had internships.

CO-OP should be the standard.

58 Million is the total earned annually by RIT students on co‑op. Co-ops are full time paid employment and internships can be full or part time with or without pay.

It's obviously easier to find full time employment at Drexel in Phila or as my son did with IBM and Kodak in Rochester.

[IUPNation]

That's a lot of "if's." The comprehensive university was a national trend and it worked until about 2010. Of course, prior to PASSHE, there was only 1 "comprehensive" university in the system.

...and it should have stayed that way.

[iupgroundhog]

Great question. But they can't even get the schools to require a capstone experience (internship or research thesis) for each program so students graduate with experience in using that degree.

To be honest, its probably because after PASSHE everyone tried developing themselves into comprehensive regional universities similar to what you see in Ohio. Problem is that PA already had Penn State then took on Pitt and Temple 15-20 years before. The schools lost their connection to their founding philosophy and infused WAY too much liberal arts. When I was a student 50% of the courses were liberal arts gen eds. Its good for the "college is about expanding your mind" crowd and helps create superficial demand for courses that people generally don't look at Kutztown or Clarion to study like philosophy or economics. We were founded as what is for lack of a better term, a trade school, for teaching. The education at the beginning was extremely hands-on and a better mix of lecture (they had mandatory chapel led by the president) and cooperative learning (hence the on campus lab schools). They should have developed into teaching-focused universities not trying to be a mini research university - or if you teach in the humanities a public liberal arts college. At the very least schools should have been driven to specialize beyond teacher education. But that doesn't fly if the president or provost are from backgrounds that don't align with that direction. There's no convincing a president or provost who has a PhD in Literature that Shippensburg should be the engineering school.

That's a lot of "if's." The comprehensive university was a national trend and it worked until about 2010. Of course, prior to PASSHE, there was only 1 "comprehensive" university in the system.