PASSHE Institutions Merging

[Fightingscot82]

I think that's an insightful post describing a likely outcome. And it's very unfortunate. I am sure that athletics played virtually no part in the PASSHE/BOG decision-making. In this case, the powers that be have no appreciation for the value of the respective athletics programs to the schools, students, alumni, or communities. Athletics was not a part of the equation.

It hasn't been clearly communicated that the plan needs athlete enrollment & tuition to work. Those who think this is plan a great move have no clue and most likely haven't read the details.

The ass clown in Guys Mills who sits on the board clearly hasn't. His only post on the matter:

[iupgroundhog]

No. SIU has two football teams but they're FBS & FCS. I don't know if they're now considered semi-autonomous schools (giving out their own degrees like University of California campuses) because I imagine that's the threshold. Long Island had two athletic departments but they were different divisions like Fairleigh Dickinson.

The only things that are consolidating with this merger: names, council of trustees, senior administration & org chart, finances and policies. Everything else largely stays the same for now while they figure out how to make this work. That's the thing - its increasingly clear that the outcome was decided long ago and the last year has been a charade to show shared governance. There's very few case studies to follow in this industry so its going to take some time to flesh this out.

Did you mean "flesh this out" or "flush this out?"

[iupgroundhog]

Do you know of any schools that have football teams at multiple campuses playing at the same NCAA level? Any examples of a school offering any sports at multiple campuses at the same NCAA level?

Seems like the PASSHE folks have tried to play fast and lose with language (merger/consolidation/shared services, etc) in an effort to obfuscate the merger of these six schools into two. One can only think that this was, in part, an effort to fool the NCAA into thinking that these six schools were remaining completely independent and not truly merging. But as the saying goes, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck...no matter how often you call it a swan.

Of course, the NCAA is a private entity and can make whatever decisions they want, even if they make no sense or run counter to their rules. If I were a betting man, I'd say that the NCAA "grandfathers" the "crossover" sports for a limited number of years (four??) to allow the current scholarship players to graduate at which time the campus can either drop down to non-scholly D3 and keep all it's sports (even the "crossover" sports) OR remain at DII with only sports offered uniquely at that campus.

I think that's an insightful post describing a likely outcome. And it's very unfortunate. I am sure that athletics played virtually no part in the PASSHE/BOG decision-making. In this case, the powers that be have no appreciation for the value of the respective athletics programs to the schools, students, alumni, or communities. Athletics was not a part of the equation.

[Fightingscot82]

Do you know of any schools that have football teams at multiple campuses playing at the same NCAA level? Any examples of a school offering any sports at multiple campuses at the same NCAA level?

Seems like the PASSHE folks have tried to play fast and lose with language (merger/consolidation/shared services, etc) in an effort to obfuscate the merger of these six schools into two. One can only think that this was, in part, an effort to fool the NCAA into thinking that these six schools were remaining completely independent and not truly merging. But as the saying goes, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck...no matter how often you call it a swan.

No. SIU has two football teams but they're FBS & FCS. I don't know if they're now considered semi-autonomous schools (giving out their own degrees like University of California campuses) because I imagine that's the threshold. Long Island had two athletic departments but they were different divisions like Fairleigh Dickinson.

The only things that are consolidating with this merger: names, council of trustees, senior administration & org chart, finances and policies. Everything else largely stays the same for now while they figure out how to make this work. That's the thing - its increasingly clear that the outcome was decided long ago and the last year has been a charade to show shared governance. There's very few case studies to follow in this industry so its going to take some time to flesh this out.

[boatcapt]

There's been consolidation but all of those have brought eliminations of athletic programs, either the Texas state schools combining to become Texas Rio Grande Valley or Georgia Southern absorbing Armstrong State. Locally, Philadelphia and Thomas Jefferson merged and merged athletic programs into one. Any other multi-campus school have semi-autonomous campus operations such as Southern Illinois or compete at different levels like Fairleigh Dickinson. The difference is that PASSHE's plan is to have a full athletic program at each school. I think the NCAA will approve if PASSHE presents a plan to show that each campus athletic department will be treated equally or fairly. It could also cause problems - Cal's football coach makes 50% more than Clarion's coach.

The non-answers from Greenstein on the NCAA question is concerning. They need athletics to make this plan work. Athletes are 10% of students in the west triad and 12% in the north-central triad. Either Greenstein has reason to believe the NCAA will approve or there is a darker more sinister plan to cut into the bone.

Do you know of any schools that have football teams at multiple campuses playing at the same NCAA level? Any examples of a school offering any sports at multiple campuses at the same NCAA level?

Seems like the PASSHE folks have tried to play fast and lose with language (merger/consolidation/shared services, etc) in an effort to obfuscate the merger of these six schools into two. One can only think that this was, in part, an effort to fool the NCAA into thinking that these six schools were remaining completely independent and not truly merging. But as the saying goes, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck...no matter how often you call it a swan.

Of course, the NCAA is a private entity and can make whatever decisions they want, even if they make no sense or run counter to their rules. If I were a betting man, I'd say that the NCAA "grandfathers" the "crossover" sports for a limited number of years (four??) to allow the current scholarship players to graduate at which time the campus can either drop down to non-scholly D3 and keep all it's sports (even the "crossover" sports) OR remain at DII with only sports offered uniquely at that campus.

[Fightingscot82]

There's certainly no guarantee that the NCAA will approve the consolidation plan when it comes to athletics. Other states have done consolidation, so this is nothing new for the NCAA. If they don't approve the plan, then the normal SOP is to give the conference in question a year to get in "compliance". It's very possible that the PSAC will look very different in 2 years. Time will tell.

There's been consolidation but all of those have brought eliminations of athletic programs, either the Texas state schools combining to become Texas Rio Grande Valley or Georgia Southern absorbing Armstrong State. Locally, Philadelphia and Thomas Jefferson merged and merged athletic programs into one. Any other multi-campus school have semi-autonomous campus operations such as Southern Illinois or compete at different levels like Fairleigh Dickinson. The difference is that PASSHE's plan is to have a full athletic program at each school. I think the NCAA will approve if PASSHE presents a plan to show that each campus athletic department will be treated equally or fairly. It could also cause problems - Cal's football coach makes 50% more than Clarion's coach.

The non-answers from Greenstein on the NCAA question is concerning. They need athletics to make this plan work. Athletes are 10% of students in the west triad and 12% in the north-central triad. Either Greenstein has reason to believe the NCAA will approve or there is a darker more sinister plan to cut into the bone.

[WarriorVoice]

There's certainly no guarantee that the NCAA will approve the consolidation plan when it comes to athletics. Other states have done consolidation, so this is nothing new for the NCAA. If they don't approve the plan, then the normal SOP is to give the conference in question a year to get in "compliance". It's very possible that the PSAC will look very different in 2 years. Time will tell.

[Bart]

has declined 20 percent since its peak in 2011

https://www.wesa.fm/education/2021-0...e-senate-panel

[Bart]

I was out of town for a few days so I missed some of the fun.


Interesting tidbit being passed around - PASSHE board chair Cindy Shapira is wealthy and super politically connected. Her husband's family owns Giant Eagle and the duo have connections to Obama and Wolf down to Allegheny County executive Rich Fitzgerald. They live in a 9,000 sq ft house in Fox Chapel. She attended Wellesley and Harvard - clearly she understands the value of public higher ed for middle class, rural, and lower earning families. Cindy is enrolled in an "executive doctorate" program in higher education at Penn - a program that costs almost $300k and is largely taught by former college presidents. But how and why? She has no professional experience in higher ed and to what purpose?

Brings back the memories of billionaire Secretary of Trump Education, Betsy DeVos.

[complaint_hopeful]

Yes - I thought some would be against it...particularly the students trustees...but wow - They were all very enthusiastic about it.

As far as communicating with students, I actually agree with Greenstein. They put a lot of communication out there. I just don't think many are willing to read a 400 page document over summer. And even after reading that, there are unanswered questions. I don't think anyone feels they 100% understand the nuts and bolts of this.

But, it doesn't matter. It was going to pass no matter what. Pretty clear that the opinion period wasn't meant to gather consensus or figure out if people want it. Change was coming.

[Fightingscot82]

I was out of town for a few days so I missed some of the fun.

The unanimous vote surprised me. It really did. But that leads me to believe that the fix was in from the start. A solution was created and folks were recruited to do the heavy lifting to fill in the details. If true, it makes sense why they ignored the outcry from the public. The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette ran a story today that students know very little about it and contradict the chancellor's assertion that great effort was made to inform students on the plan. Several are quoted as believing the mergers will reduce their tuition. LOL!

Interesting tidbit being passed around - PASSHE board chair Cindy Shapira is wealthy and super politically connected. Her husband's family owns Giant Eagle and the duo have connections to Obama and Wolf down to Allegheny County executive Rich Fitzgerald. They live in a 9,000 sq ft house in Fox Chapel. She attended Wellesley and Harvard - clearly she understands the value of public higher ed for middle class, rural, and lower earning families. Cindy is enrolled in an "executive doctorate" program in higher education at Penn - a program that costs almost $300k and is largely taught by former college presidents. But how and why? She has no professional experience in higher ed and to what purpose?

[Bart]

Are they worth it? Is it worth it?



https://www.post-gazette.com/news/ed...s/202107160092

[complaint_hopeful]

Any idea what the actual debt is? Yea, 12.5M will bring any debt down but are we talking about 100M debt or 13M before application of the 12.5M?

So 2 of the schools in the West had over $100 million debt each. (Now that's all debt and not just housing.)

But, Clarion and Edinboro were both supposedly at negative reserves. Over $6 million each.

My speculation is that they used this money to pay down Housing debt, thus erasing the negative reserves. But, it's really going to be 1 budget anyways so won't matter which schools got it I suppose.

[boatcapt]

The Pa. State System of Higher Ed. has $75M in one-time funds. Here's the preliminary spending plan | Pennsylvania Capital-Star (penncapital-star.com)


Of note:

$12.5 million for debt reliefcloser to achieving sustainable operations.

Any idea what the actual debt is? Yea, 12.5M will bring any debt down but are we talking about 100M debt or 13M before application of the 12.5M?

[complaint_hopeful]

The Pa. State System of Higher Ed. has $75M in one-time funds. Here's the preliminary spending plan | Pennsylvania Capital-Star (penncapital-star.com)


Of note:

$12.5 million for debt relief