PASSHE Institutions Merging

[Bart]

Not too much new info there. Putting it in the context of D2 might have some significance. You would think having the weight of the largest conference in D2 behind it means something.

It may support D1 sports staying in place, but affect the D2 sports.

[iupgroundhog]

Steve Murray "Integrated institutions under one executive leadership team but with separate campuses and athletic programs is not unique in the NCAA, however it is a new model for Division II to consider."

https://www.caltimes.org/8378/sports...r-integration/

Not too much new info there. Putting it in the context of D2 might have some significance. You would think having the weight of the largest conference in D2 behind it means something.

[Bart]

Steve Murray "Integrated institutions under one executive leadership team but with separate campuses and athletic programs is not unique in the NCAA, however it is a new model for Division II to consider."

https://www.caltimes.org/8378/sports...r-integration/

[Fightingscot82]

Yep. And this extra money that the state is giving...some of it is going to go towards erasing these deficits...and possibly pay off housing debt, etc.

I don't think its much. I believe I saw $7.5 million system-wide. That's nothing. The system has roughly $1 billion in debt with about 60% owed by the six consolidating schools.

[complaint_hopeful]

I have a pretty good idea which school is going to take an enrollment nosedive. Piss poor performance on recruiting students is how they got there and continue to do poorly. Its like the Pirates firing their club president and expecting different on-field results.

Ironically, these schools *can't* go bankrupt. They're extensions of the commonwealth. Cheyney operated at negative reserves for years and nothing happened. Its about how much the state is willing to watch them lose. For example, most PA state parks operate at a significant loss. For some the only revenue stream is camping sites that are cheap - like $15/night. Sizerville State Park has a pool that doesn't charge admission. That's a total loss right there. But every park has salaried rangers and support staff plus operational costs that far surpass what revenue comes in. They don't get closed and sold off.

Yep. And this extra money that the state is giving...some of it is going to go towards erasing these deficits...and possibly pay off housing debt, etc.

[Fightingscot82]

Yes. 2 schools in the West supposedly have negative reserves. I've heard a strong rumor that one of the schools in the Integration could be losing upwards of 20% enrollment for the coming year.

Schools were on the verge of going bankrupt. Thus, why they acted this quickly.

The question just becomes if this works to fix it.

I have a pretty good idea which school is going to take an enrollment nosedive. Piss poor performance on recruiting students is how they got there and continue to do poorly. Its like the Pirates firing their club president and expecting different on-field results.

Ironically, these schools *can't* go bankrupt. They're extensions of the commonwealth. Cheyney operated at negative reserves for years and nothing happened. Its about how much the state is willing to watch them lose. For example, most PA state parks operate at a significant loss. For some the only revenue stream is camping sites that are cheap - like $15/night. Sizerville State Park has a pool that doesn't charge admission. That's a total loss right there. But every park has salaried rangers and support staff plus operational costs that far surpass what revenue comes in. They don't get closed and sold off.

[Fightingscot82]

It's amazing UMES is still open.

Side note, their 'D1' basketball program has lost 2 or 3 straight games to neighbor (D3) Salisbury University.

They just got $20 million from Mackenzie Scott.

[Fightingscot82]

Except that Thomas Jefferson, if I'm not mistaken, didn't have athletics when they were integrated into Philadelphia University.

Also, don't forget about the LIU-Brooklyn/LIU-Post merger, which saw the D2 programs at Post merged into the D1 programs at Brooklyn. The UT-RGV merger saw the UT-Brownsville and UT-Pan American (Edinburg) campuses merged into a single entity, but both programs were D1 non-football and the RGV sports teams rebranded into their present identity.

As I noted in this thread a few weeks ago, Northern Vermont University (D3) was created following a merger of Johnson State College and Lyndon State College, but both campuses retained their separate athletic programs.

I have a gut feeling we won't get an immediate answer from the NCAA given how few answers we've been given by the powers that be in Harrisburg. If the PASSHE scheme is similar to NVU or SIU, then all six programs will likely be retained. If it's more along the lines of Georgia Southern/Armstrong State, then I'd expect to see a lot of lobbying from the six campuses and a lot of bitter fights to determine where the two merged programs will ultimately end up.

The plan is to retain. I don't think it originally was. Part of the pre-integration sustainability plans was that all 14 schools had to do a ROI report for all athletic programs (total tuition of roster players divided by personnel and operational expenses). I believe most were surprised that nearly all sports bring in more tuition money than they cost to operate. Maybe that is cost of attendance outpacing expenses. It also forced the reckoning that most athletes are only there for the athletic opportunity so reducing players has a strong correlation with reduced enrollment and these schools can't afford to lose any more enrollment. I've heard from several that most schools are researching startup costs for low cost athletic programs that will attract new students with little scholarship support.

[Fightingscot82]

SIU Carbondale football competes in the FCS Missouri Valley Football Conference and is a full member of the MVC in other sports; SIU Edwardsville (which was a D2 program until 2008) doesn't sponsor football and competes in the Ohio Valley Conference.

Why did I think Carbondale was in the MAC? Oh well. Thanks for correcting.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

UMd Eastern Shore was the HBCU of what is now the University System of Maryland (UMd College Park was segregated until 1951, when the first Black students were admitted); UMBC was opened as a branch campus of College Park in the 1960s. Those three schools weren't created via merger (though UMES was created as a privately operated HBCU before the State of Maryland acquired it in the 1930s).

It's amazing UMES is still open.

Side note, their 'D1' basketball program has lost 2 or 3 straight games to neighbor (D3) Salisbury University.

[ctrabs74]

Not that it counts, but the University of Maryland, University of Maryland Baltimore County, and University of Maryland Eastern Shore all play D1 basketball. Perhaps Northeastern University at Bloomsburg...at Lock Haven....and at Mansfield can do it.

UMd Eastern Shore was the HBCU of what is now the University System of Maryland (UMd College Park was segregated until 1951, when the first Black students were admitted); UMBC was opened as a branch campus of College Park in the 1960s. Those three schools weren't created via merger (though UMES was created as a privately operated HBCU before the State of Maryland acquired it in the 1930s).

[ctrabs74]

No. SIU has two football teams but they're FBS & FCS. I don't know if they're now considered semi-autonomous schools (giving out their own degrees like University of California campuses) because I imagine that's the threshold. Long Island had two athletic departments but they were different divisions like Fairleigh Dickinson.

The only things that are consolidating with this merger: names, council of trustees, senior administration & org chart, finances and policies. Everything else largely stays the same for now while they figure out how to make this work. That's the thing - its increasingly clear that the outcome was decided long ago and the last year has been a charade to show shared governance. There's very few case studies to follow in this industry so its going to take some time to flesh this out.

SIU Carbondale football competes in the FCS Missouri Valley Football Conference and is a full member of the MVC in other sports; SIU Edwardsville (which was a D2 program until 2008) doesn't sponsor football and competes in the Ohio Valley Conference.

[ctrabs74]

There's been consolidation but all of those have brought eliminations of athletic programs, either the Texas state schools combining to become Texas Rio Grande Valley or Georgia Southern absorbing Armstrong State. Locally, Philadelphia and Thomas Jefferson merged and merged athletic programs into one. Any other multi-campus school have semi-autonomous campus operations such as Southern Illinois or compete at different levels like Fairleigh Dickinson. The difference is that PASSHE's plan is to have a full athletic program at each school. I think the NCAA will approve if PASSHE presents a plan to show that each campus athletic department will be treated equally or fairly. It could also cause problems - Cal's football coach makes 50% more than Clarion's coach.

The non-answers from Greenstein on the NCAA question is concerning. They need athletics to make this plan work. Athletes are 10% of students in the west triad and 12% in the north-central triad. Either Greenstein has reason to believe the NCAA will approve or there is a darker more sinister plan to cut into the bone.

Except that Thomas Jefferson, if I'm not mistaken, didn't have athletics when they were integrated into Philadelphia University.

Also, don't forget about the LIU-Brooklyn/LIU-Post merger, which saw the D2 programs at Post merged into the D1 programs at Brooklyn. The UT-RGV merger saw the UT-Brownsville and UT-Pan American (Edinburg) campuses merged into a single entity, but both programs were D1 non-football and the RGV sports teams rebranded into their present identity.

As I noted in this thread a few weeks ago, Northern Vermont University (D3) was created following a merger of Johnson State College and Lyndon State College, but both campuses retained their separate athletic programs.

I have a gut feeling we won't get an immediate answer from the NCAA given how few answers we've been given by the powers that be in Harrisburg. If the PASSHE scheme is similar to NVU or SIU, then all six programs will likely be retained. If it's more along the lines of Georgia Southern/Armstrong State, then I'd expect to see a lot of lobbying from the six campuses and a lot of bitter fights to determine where the two merged programs will ultimately end up.

[iupgroundhog]

Not that it counts, but the University of Maryland, University of Maryland Baltimore County, and University of Maryland Eastern Shore all play D1 basketball. Perhaps Northeastern University at Bloomsburg...at Lock Haven....and at Mansfield can do it.

Well, those schools all have their own President so I don't think they are very integrated. Bloomfield Haven is different.

[Bart]

Do you know of any schools that have football teams at multiple campuses playing at the same NCAA level? Any examples of a school offering any sports at multiple campuses at the same NCAA level?

Not that it counts, but the University of Maryland, University of Maryland Baltimore County, and University of Maryland Eastern Shore all play D1 basketball. Perhaps Northeastern University at Bloomsburg...at Lock Haven....and at Mansfield can do it.