PASSHE Institutions Merging

[Fightingscot82]

I think we will reach a point with this where the only recourse is legal. I have to think there will be lawsuits.

In particular, the 2 points I raised above. This was sold with the assumption that the NCAA would rule favorably. I think that was an empty promise.

What frustrates me is that it took until 2021 integration committees to realize the ROI for athletics at each school. I still think that cutting athletics at Cheyney was a terrible decision for that very reason. I imagine it was buried in some report given to a council of trustees, but it wasn't common knowledge that athletes are around 10% of these schools' enrollment. Until then there was anecdotal evidence and sentiment keeping athletics. Meanwhile they used ROI as a reason for cutting music majors at Clarion & Edinboro.

I truly fear that the system board will approve this unanimously or with a large majority. The Republican-appointed members will pat themselves on the back for making a financially-responsible decision to right-size the system and cut costs. Others who know no better will think this is a great plan. The ones who did none of the work but believe that nobody knows this system like Greenstein.

I'm annoyed that the Western triad doesn't seem to be fighting this like those in the "Northeast" triad. Stockholm Syndrome from years of losses, failures, & micro-scandals I guess.

[complaint_hopeful]

I think we will reach a point with this where the only recourse is legal. I have to think there will be lawsuits.

In particular, the 2 points I raised above. This was sold with the assumption that the NCAA would rule favorably. I think that was an empty promise.

I could see the faculty union suing.

As far as the NCAA...I don't know. Act 50 doesn't have a requirement for Athletic programs. I could maybe see student athlete's suing that they came to a school with a commitment for sports and it's gone.

[iupgroundhog]

I often compare it to the state funding privately-owned liquor stores that are located in a shopping plaza adjacent to the plaza with the state-owned Fine Wine & Good Spirits then questioning why the FWGS stores aren't performing better. Plus don't forget that Penn State also controls Penn College of Technology in Williamsport, which again duplicates the efforts of Thaddeus Stevens, a state-owned college with an extremely similar mission & curriculum.

Not only that, Penn College is a 25 minute drive from LHU and last year Penn College (PSU) started a Physician Assistant program. Chew on that a while.

[complaint_hopeful]

Other than the PERI study but it focuses more on the system-wide staffing reductions. https://www.peri.umass.edu/component...ent-reductions

Yep. From the Sustainability Plans.

I honestly don't know where someone would start to study the impacts to a community in this. There is so much unknown. The mix of classes isn't even readily known and what classes will be offered where. The Athletics situation is unknown. <--- Any of those things could have a huge community impact.

[Fightingscot82]

Talk about a mess. The state basically funds all of these schools that steal students from each other...and many can't survive without that funding. There either shouldn't have been a PASSHE or all of these Pitt/PSU/etc campuses. It's poor planning.

It's like building 10 gas stations in a small town and wondering why they fail.

I often compare it to the state funding privately-owned liquor stores that are located in a shopping plaza adjacent to the plaza with the state-owned Fine Wine & Good Spirits then questioning why the FWGS stores aren't performing better. Plus don't forget that Penn State also controls Penn College of Technology in Williamsport, which again duplicates the efforts of Thaddeus Stevens, a state-owned college with an extremely similar mission & curriculum.

[Fightingscot82]

In my view. there are 2 things that are outrageous with the situation as it stands now.

#1 - There has been no NCAA decision regarding athletics and no indication there will be one before this can be stopped. Athletics is the key to the identity maintenance concept. In this important regard, Greenstein has lied to all constituencies.

#2 - There have been no economic impact studies done to shed light on the economic losses for the local communities and their broader regions.

I'm afraid this will go down as a terrible folly. Greenstein's folly.

Other than the PERI study but it focuses more on the system-wide staffing reductions. https://www.peri.umass.edu/component...ent-reductions

[iupgroundhog]

I think we will reach a point with this where the only recourse is legal. I have to think there will be lawsuits.

In particular, the 2 points I raised above. This was sold with the assumption that the NCAA would rule favorably. I think that was an empty promise.

[complaint_hopeful]

In my view. there are 2 things that are outrageous with the situation as it stands now.

#1 - There has been no NCAA decision regarding athletics and no indication there will be one before this can be stopped. Athletics is the key to the identity maintenance concept. In this important regard, Greenstein has lied to all constituencies.

#2 - There have been no economic impact studies done to shed light on the economic losses for the local communities and their broader regions.

I'm afraid this will go down as a terrible folly. Greenstein's folly.

I would add to your list that doing projections based on enrollment growth for institutions that have been losing enrollment year over year for several years...is questionable.


Your #2 is specifically called out in ACT 50:

(7) The financial impact on the surrounding community of the institution if action is taken by the board to exercise the board's powers under subsection (a.1).

2020 Act 50 - PA General Assembly (state.pa.us)

[complaint_hopeful]

Yeah and to be honest, I'm surprised he didn't right away. Most other higher ed folks immediately question that duplication of services and the redundancy of the state funding when its already so low. I've posted it here before. Penn State and Pitt's branches (save PS Erie and PS Harrisburg) are dumpster fires of the bottom tier of PASSHE fashion. Most have fewer than 1,000 students and their ability to retain and graduate students is pathetic. They've also lost enrollment just as well because instead of being located in small towns like most of PASSHE, PS and Pitt branches are in old, crumbling manufacturing towns like Hazleton, Johnstown, McKeesport, Titusville, and Uniontown.

I'm fine with the funding Penn State gets - but they should receive greater scrutiny of how its used (outlet store campuses and subject to open records requests. People don't realize Pitt was a private university for 179 years until the state gave them a permanent bailout from bankruptcy. 81 years for Temple. Pitt has the fundraising capacity to have an endowment of $4.17 billion. I don't know how UPMC directly benefits the university financially beyond the medical school and medical profession programs because they too are not subject to open records requests. Also, we're still giving private Ivy League school Penn's school of veterinary medicine almost $32 million a year. Penn's fully private and has the fundraising capacity to have a nearly $15 billion endowment. Imagine that $32 million a year for need-based grants for students to attend PASSHE schools.

Talk about a mess. The state basically funds all of these schools that steal students from each other...and many can't survive without that funding. There either shouldn't have been a PASSHE or all of these Pitt/PSU/etc campuses. It's poor planning.

It's like building 10 gas stations in a small town and wondering why they fail.

[complaint_hopeful]

Greenstein has pretty much always worked in higher ed but he has approached this job as a higher ed wonk. He's more about talking about the process than actually rolling up the sleeves and doing the work the right way. He's made the rounds on nearly every higher ed podcast and periodical leading up to this work. Now its getting exposed for it being more talk than detailed plan.

I do applaud the faculty union. I'm usually very critical of them. They've been pretty much on point for questioning this plan while also playing along with the formation of it. They also helped increase the number of public comment forums and have exposed how lopsided the commentary has been.

I just spent the weekend with a dozen college friends and it came up once. I was surprised at how many clearly understood the details of the situation: demographic loss, competing poorly in a stiff environment, poor funding/oversight, and lots of short-sighted mismanagement.

Indeed. These plans are more business case than implementation plans. And even at a business case level, things like the projected enrollment gain raise eyebrows.

The disaster is that when this gets approved in July, these 6 schools are going to have a year to make this thing work. And a year is misleading, because for students to start in August...some items need to go live in January.

[iupgroundhog]

In my view. there are 2 things that are outrageous with the situation as it stands now.

#1 - There has been no NCAA decision regarding athletics and no indication there will be one before this can be stopped. Athletics is the key to the identity maintenance concept. In this important regard, Greenstein has lied to all constituencies.

#2 - There have been no economic impact studies done to shed light on the economic losses for the local communities and their broader regions.

I'm afraid this will go down as a terrible folly. Greenstein's folly.

[Fightingscot82]

Depends, I'm sure that there are certain circles where what he is doing is viewed as very innovative, and giving him the " can make difficult decisions" He's already positioned to blame other people for the system failure, and he is essentially laid out a path where schools can be closed down, without really saying they've been closed down. The beauty of his plan, from a political point of view, is he has set up a future where the challenged schools lose their identity, where the current students have a viable graduation path that is relatively easy, and there is a path that will allow useful resources (buildings and personnel ) to be transferred easily within a viable university. Its really pretty smart when you look at it from a political perspective. He knew that the schools themselves would not like it. But he's set up to make the people that oppose it too hard as backward thinking, and selfish. And next year he'll rip them with "right sizing", in a very ambiguous contractual environment.

Greenstein has pretty much always worked in higher ed but he has approached this job as a higher ed wonk. He's more about talking about the process than actually rolling up the sleeves and doing the work the right way. He's made the rounds on nearly every higher ed podcast and periodical leading up to this work. Now its getting exposed for it being more talk than detailed plan.

I do applaud the faculty union. I'm usually very critical of them. They've been pretty much on point for questioning this plan while also playing along with the formation of it. They also helped increase the number of public comment forums and have exposed how lopsided the commentary has been.

I just spent the weekend with a dozen college friends and it came up once. I was surprised at how many clearly understood the details of the situation: demographic loss, competing poorly in a stiff environment, poor funding/oversight, and lots of short-sighted mismanagement.

[Fightingscot82]

Greenstein was stupid not to challenge the current PSSHE vs State Related way of funding by Harrisburg.

Does the Centre County Community College really need 300 million a year from Harrisburg? Can't they just use their BIG money to cover some costs?

Why does the Oakland Academy For Remedial Studies need 150 million a year from Harrisburg? You'd think the outrageous money UPMC charges it's patients would cover their costs.

Hell...Temple doesn't even need as much as they are getting.

Support the schools you own. Make the ones that you don't find other revenue streams....

Yeah and to be honest, I'm surprised he didn't right away. Most other higher ed folks immediately question that duplication of services and the redundancy of the state funding when its already so low. I've posted it here before. Penn State and Pitt's branches (save PS Erie and PS Harrisburg) are dumpster fires of the bottom tier of PASSHE fashion. Most have fewer than 1,000 students and their ability to retain and graduate students is pathetic. They've also lost enrollment just as well because instead of being located in small towns like most of PASSHE, PS and Pitt branches are in old, crumbling manufacturing towns like Hazleton, Johnstown, McKeesport, Titusville, and Uniontown.

I'm fine with the funding Penn State gets - but they should receive greater scrutiny of how its used (outlet store campuses and subject to open records requests. People don't realize Pitt was a private university for 179 years until the state gave them a permanent bailout from bankruptcy. 81 years for Temple. Pitt has the fundraising capacity to have an endowment of $4.17 billion. I don't know how UPMC directly benefits the university financially beyond the medical school and medical profession programs because they too are not subject to open records requests. Also, we're still giving private Ivy League school Penn's school of veterinary medicine almost $32 million a year. Penn's fully private and has the fundraising capacity to have a nearly $15 billion endowment. Imagine that $32 million a year for need-based grants for students to attend PASSHE schools.

[ironmaniup]

At this point, I don't see what he can gain. Initially he came in and set expectations that he could innovate and make something new. Perhaps even implementing some Gates Foundation ideas. Now, they're just cutting. Not much innovation in this and the public seems largely against him.there arecertain

Some of the numbers in the presentation are wildly optimistic...and it still doesn't all make sense and isn't accepted.

What kind of stepping stone for his career will this stop be?

Depends, I'm sure that there are certain circles where what he is doing is viewed as very innovative, and giving him the " can make difficult decisions" He's already positioned to blame other people for the system failure, and he is essentially laid out a path where schools can be closed down, without really saying they've been closed down. The beauty of his plan, from a political point of view, is he has set up a future where the challenged schools lose their identity, where the current students have a viable graduation path that is relatively easy, and there is a path that will allow useful resources (buildings and personnel ) to be transferred easily within a viable university. Its really pretty smart when you look at it from a political perspective. He knew that the schools themselves would not like it. But he's set up to make the people that oppose it too hard as backward thinking, and selfish. And next year he'll rip them with "right sizing", in a very ambiguous contractual environment.

[complaint_hopeful]

Greenstein was stupid not to challenge the current PSSHE vs State Related way of funding by Harrisburg.

Does the Centre County Community College really need 300 million a year from Harrisburg? Can't they just use their BIG money to cover some costs?

Why does the Oakland Academy For Remedial Studies need 150 million a year from Harrisburg? You'd think the outrageous money UPMC charges it's patients would cover their costs.

Hell...Temple doesn't even need as much as they are getting.

Support the schools you own. Make the ones that you don't find other revenue streams....

This. 100%. And when the gov didn't give funding, they should have put it visibly in the press about how badly they're funded. Over and over. And rallied alumni to help the fight. Get the public on your side.