PASSHE Institutions Merging

[Fightingscot82]

Yep. And now they're just trying to put a pretty bow on it in a presentation. I hope they go over how they project enrollment increases, etc.

The problem with the attrition thing is it weakens depts. Like say an employee leaves in Dept A, they typically don't refill the position. Then the others absorb the work. At a certain point, quality falls. Some schools have done this for years. You can only cut so much. They'd likely be better assessing positions they don't need.

The kicker is, they want to cut all these employees AND grow. I don't see how that will be possible. You need a certain amount of faculty and staff to support growth.

Plus, I'd imagine some of the better employees will leave.

Union contracts also dictate layoffs go by seniority. Even after constant retirement incentives, they're still going to lay off the younger, lesser paid faculty instead of somehow focusing on need or performance. A professor I had at Edinboro has been there since 2003 and was laid off. 17 years in (halfway to retirement) and still considered low seniority.

[Fightingscot82]

I'm convinced that there was no other path considered other than significant staff reductions, Greenstein's job was to come up with a way to do that that didn't look quite as harsh. At IUP I'd guess that retirements reduced the projected layoffs by about half. How it works in the future depends on future enrollments. Whether the merged cshools have that much buffer with older faculty , I don't know.

In the end they could have gone with pay cuts, more creative financing of the overbuilt Dorms, including state funding/backstops, etc, more state funding for students attending the PASSHE but there really is not the will to fix it in a sustainable way. There is a never ending supply of academics that think they can fix such problems with rearranging the deck chairs, and enjoy immensely the meetings and planning that goes with such rearrangements. By merging though, they can greatly reduce some schools without "closing" them but of course for all practical purposes, the schools exists in name only .

Greenstein is a wonk. He talks about higher ed but has never really done the work. He's friends with other higher ed wonks like Jeff Selingo. I think that he realized the only path forward was to tirelessly fight the legislature for more funding or cut & consolidate. One is a lot easier than the other, which is why he packaged it as the "only" solution.

My fear is that the plan doesn't lower the direct cost to students, so if a student is mobile why attend? If a student isn't mobile and lives in a rural area, there's a decent chance that their internet isn't fast enough to handle online education. So the consolidated schools will be less attractive, further boosting Slippery Rock and West Chester with mobile students. Immobile students (including those who can't afford to live out of home) are lost. Or at best they go further into debt to live on somewhere or attend a local private or flagship outlet store (counter to the mission of PASSHE). Looking for the source but a higher ed researcher I follow said nationally just 5-7% of fully online undergraduate students are "traditional" age of 18-25 and most are deployed military.

I'd LOVE to be wrong. This plan is untested and has a lot of glaring question marks.

[Fightingscot82]

Thank goodness you said that, because this guy's post from several months ago made PASSHE practically sound like a jobs program.

I think you misinterpreted what I was saying. The schools exist to provide a college education at a low cost to students. A *huge* secondary benefit is for the communities with an influx of well-paying jobs. Its not the reason to oppose the plan but it absolutely has to be mentioned. There's a big ripple effect when you lose these jobs: people leave and aren't replaced, houses go unsold and bring down the value of remaining homes, people meaning means school population drops and in turn state funding drops, churches lose people and lose money, etc. This rationale is why the state refuses to close the few remaining state hospitals or consolidate prisons.

[Bart]

3 of the 6 I would say could fail soon without steps. Mansfield already had to borrow money.

If you get 3 schools having to borrow money from passhe, the system could fail.

But, most Penn State campuses lose money and the main campus sustains them...so I don't know. Maybe passhe needs to look at this different as opposed to having them all profitable.

Sometimes a surgeon has to cut out parts, so that the healthy parts don't become diseased. PASSHE is trying to treat the problem, but may end up killing the patient.

[complaint_hopeful]

PERI Report- The Economic Impact of the PASSHE Employment Reductions

https://krc-pbpc.org/peri-report-the...ee-reductions/

[complaint_hopeful]

I get the impression most people think these schools are all in danger of failing. In some cases the merger is a matter of geography or else any of the other sisters could have been dragged into this mess. How the hell did Slippery Rock get out from under the thumb?

3 of the 6 I would say could fail soon without steps. Mansfield already had to borrow money.

If you get 3 schools having to borrow money from passhe, the system could fail.

But, most Penn State campuses lose money and the main campus sustains them...so I don't know. Maybe passhe needs to look at this different as opposed to having them all profitable.

[complaint_hopeful]

I'm convinced that there was no other path considered other than significant staff reductions, Greenstein's job was to come up with a way to do that that didn't look quite as harsh. At IUP I'd guess that retirements reduced the projected layoffs by about half. How it works in the future depends on future enrollments. Whether the merged cshools have that much buffer with older faculty , I don't know.

In the end they could have gone with pay cuts, more creative financing of the overbuilt Dorms, including state funding/backstops, etc, more state funding for students attending the PASSHE but there really is not the will to fix it in a sustainable way. There is a never ending supply of academics that think they can fix such problems with rearranging the deck chairs, and enjoy immensely the meetings and planning that goes with such rearrangements. By merging though, they can greatly reduce some schools without "closing" them but of course for all practical purposes, the schools exists in name only .

Yep. And now they're just trying to put a pretty bow on it in a presentation. I hope they go over how they project enrollment increases, etc.

The problem with the attrition thing is it weakens depts. Like say an employee leaves in Dept A, they typically don't refill the position. Then the others absorb the work. At a certain point, quality falls. Some schools have done this for years. You can only cut so much. They'd likely be better assessing positions they don't need.

The kicker is, they want to cut all these employees AND grow. I don't see how that will be possible. You need a certain amount of faculty and staff to support growth.

Plus, I'd imagine some of the better employees will leave.

[complaint_hopeful]

Including the ones that shows PA is 47th in funding?

And most people are desensitized to layoffs since most people are susceptible to them, save teachers and PASSHE.

I don't think the 47th in state funding would sway the BOG to vote this down. They're all aware of it...just as they're aware that job loss will occur in this.

Actually, I think both of those things could make it more likely to push the Integrations.

Job losses were coming no matter what for some. The sustainability plans would have laid some off...just not this drastic.

[iupgroundhog]

Could they put like a Disneyworld there? It's right off I-80.

[Bart]

I get the impression most people think these schools are all in danger of failing. In some cases the merger is a matter of geography or else any of the other sisters could have been dragged into this mess. How the hell did Slippery Rock get out from under the thumb?

[ironmaniup]

The job loss sucks. It's terrible.

That said, the path to stopping this is the BOG voting it down or the gov putting pressure on them to stop it. It was obvious this whole time that there would have to be job loss for cost savings. Passhe is painting it as retirements will help offset layoffs. I don't see job losses as swaying the BOG or gov. Passhe employees are considered overpaid by some, and outside of the impacted communities...most Pennsylvanians don't care. People are desensitized to layoffs.

I think a more compelling case against this would be to go through the reports and challenge the numbers. Like oh all the sudden enrollment grows? Once those numbers aren't inflated, just staying the course and using sustainability plans look better. Also use what happened in Georgia.

And, look at the initial costs of this integration. Would that money be better spent paying down debt?, but for all practical purposes

My 2 cents. I'm far from someone who engages in campaigns like this. But, to sway people, you need to use facts important to them.

That said, I think the board is mesmerized by Greenstein and his confidence in this...so I doubt they vote it down.

I'm convinced that there was no other path considered other than significant staff reductions, Greenstein's job was to come up with a way to do that that didn't look quite as harsh. At IUP I'd guess that retirements reduced the projected layoffs by about half. How it works in the future depends on future enrollments. Whether the merged cshools have that much buffer with older faculty , I don't know.

In the end they could have gone with pay cuts, more creative financing of the overbuilt Dorms, including state funding/backstops, etc, more state funding for students attending the PASSHE but there really is not the will to fix it in a sustainable way. There is a never ending supply of academics that think they can fix such problems with rearranging the deck chairs, and enjoy immensely the meetings and planning that goes with such rearrangements. By merging though, they can greatly reduce some schools without "closing" them but of course for all practical purposes, the schools exists in name only .

[Horror Child]

Its a bit 11th hour, but there are some really compelling reports being shared on the Twitter right now. To make this plan work, every campus is going to cut costs (shed jobs). The job elimination plans at four schools will be the largest mass layoff in their respective county within the last decade. I know universities aren't there to keep people employed but there are only negative ripple effects when you remove good paying jobs from rural communities.

Thank goodness you said that, because this guy's post from several months ago made PASSHE practically sound like a jobs program.

Something I noticed that's important to note about those who think closing campuses is a good idea - these schools aren't just predominantly in rural areas, they're also in low earning communities who don't just need geographic access to post-secondary education but the schools are a major socioeconomic pillar.

When we close a physical campus, we create a geographic desert. The majority of students commute to nearly all PASSHE schools. If Clarion closes, residents have to drive 41 minutes to Penn State DuBois, 55 minutes to Slippery Rock, or 76 minutes to IUP. The local economies generally don't produce earners that can afford the cost of such daily commutes. Those hours driving also cut into the notion that one can/should "work their way through school."

But people can just attend online, right? Rural PA has a high speed internet problem, something required for online education. In Edinboro, PA, the local school district had to install wifi hubs to the perimeter of its schools so parents could drive up and get their kids internet access. In 2020, the state is still building cell phone towers so state police radios will work. No cell service most likely means no high speed internet access.

Economics and tax revenue is why these schools were converted to comprehensive schools. More education has a direct correlation to higher incomes - and thus more tax revenue. This is even more important as PA loses population. These schools aren't just economic engines, they're also economic pillars of their communities and counties. These schools also provide many good jobs (above average pay, excellent benefits) for workers without a degree. The most important benefits for this group are low cost health insurance, strong retirement plans, and tuition remission. In Chester County, the two PASSHE campuses together are the #14 employer. But most of these schools are in counties where people struggle. Half of the PASSHE schools are located in counties with a median household income below the state average. That includes Indiana. Of the six schools up for "integration", all six are located in these counties.

Bloomsburg (Columbia): #2
Lock Haven (Clinton): #4
Mansfield (Tioga): #4

California (Washington): #9
Clarion (Clarion): #1
Edinboro (Erie): #24

[Horror Child]

The job loss sucks. It's terrible.

That said, the path to stopping this is the BOG voting it down or the gov putting pressure on them to stop it. It was obvious this whole time that there would have to be job loss for cost savings. Passhe is painting it as retirements will help offset layoffs. I don't see job losses as swaying the BOG or gov. Passhe employees are considered overpaid by some, and outside of the impacted communities...most Pennsylvanians don't care. People are desensitized to layoffs.

I think a more compelling case against this would be to go through the reports and challenge the numbers. Like oh all the sudden enrollment grows? Once those numbers aren't inflated, just staying the course and using sustainability plans look better. Also use what happened in Georgia.

And, look at the initial costs of this integration. Would that money be better spent paying down debt?

My 2 cents. I'm far from someone who engages in campaigns like this. But, to sway people, you need to use facts important to them.

That said, I think the board is mesmerized by Greenstein and his confidence in this...so I doubt they vote it down.

Including the ones that shows PA is 47th in funding?

And most people are desensitized to layoffs since most people are susceptible to them, save teachers and PASSHE.

[Horror Child]

LOL ironically one of the suggestions for academic growth is the creation of a cannabis science certificate.

But yes, the 6 schools in question have nearly $470 million in construction debt. Mansfield owes the system $7 million in operational debt.

Divided by ~14 million people living in the state of PA = $0.50 for every man, woman, or child in the state. That's in a year. Shame on the state legislature.

[complaint_hopeful]

Its a bit 11th hour, but there are some really compelling reports being shared on the Twitter right now. To make this plan work, every campus is going to cut costs (shed jobs). The job elimination plans at four schools will be the largest mass layoff in their respective county within the last decade. I know universities aren't there to keep people employed but there are only negative ripple effects when you remove good paying jobs from rural communities.

The job loss sucks. It's terrible.

That said, the path to stopping this is the BOG voting it down or the gov putting pressure on them to stop it. It was obvious this whole time that there would have to be job loss for cost savings. Passhe is painting it as retirements will help offset layoffs. I don't see job losses as swaying the BOG or gov. Passhe employees are considered overpaid by some, and outside of the impacted communities...most Pennsylvanians don't care. People are desensitized to layoffs.

I think a more compelling case against this would be to go through the reports and challenge the numbers. Like oh all the sudden enrollment grows? Once those numbers aren't inflated, just staying the course and using sustainability plans look better. Also use what happened in Georgia.

And, look at the initial costs of this integration. Would that money be better spent paying down debt?

My 2 cents. I'm far from someone who engages in campaigns like this. But, to sway people, you need to use facts important to them.

That said, I think the board is mesmerized by Greenstein and his confidence in this...so I doubt they vote it down.