Thumping

[Ship69]

Harrisburg could mess up a wet dream. We literally have the worst state government in the Northeast for sure and quite possibly in the whole US. A bloated governing body that is vastly overpaid and too many perks.

Yet they've been dominated for the last 25 years by legislators who claim to be "small government" advocates. I guess they certainly have been small when it comes to funding PASSHE.

[ESU Warrior]

There probably are more Division II programs in Pa. than in any other state and there are a ton of Division III as well. Even with declining high school enrollments, there is a lot of small-college level talent in Pa., but as others have said it's spread pretty thin.

Imagine taking Kutztown, ESU, and Bloom, all within an hour or so of each other, and creating one team out of those players. Or in the west it would be Slippery Rock, Clarion, and IUP. I know ESU, Clarion, and Bloom are not world beaters, but that is how those other schools outside of PA are. Maybe with the exception of some of the West Virginia schools.

[Matt Burglund]

NCAA football programs, by state:

State	FBS	FCS	D2	D3	Total
Pennsylvania	3	8	17	26	54
Ohio	8	2	10	21	41
Texas	12	8	7	10	37
North Carolina	7	7	14	4	32
New York	3	8	2	18	31
Massachusetts	2	2	5	20	29
Illinois	3	4	2	19	28
Minnesota	1		9	15	25
Virginia	3	7	3	10	23
California	7	4	2	8	21
Michigan	5		8	7	20
Wisconsin	1			18	19
Indiana	4	3	2	9	18
Iowa	2	2	1	11	16
Georgia	4	3	7	2	16
Tennessee	4	6	3	3	16
Missouri	1	2	10	2	15
Alabama	4	4	4	2	14
Florida	7	4	2		13
South Carolina	2	7	4		13
Oklahoma	3		9		12
Louisiana	5	6		1	12
West Virginia	2		9	1	12
Arkansas	2	2	6	1	11
Mississippi	3	3	2	2	10
Kentucky	3	3	2	2	10
Colorado	3	1	6		10
Connecticut	1	3	2	4	10
Maryland	2	2	1	5	10
Oregon	2	1	1	5	9
New Jersey	1	2		6	9
South Dakota		2	5		7
Washington	2	1	1	3	7
Kansas	2		4		6
Utah	3	2	1		6
Maine		1		5	6
Nebraska	1		3	1	5
New Mexico	2		3		5
North Dakota		2	2		4
D.C.		2		2	4
New Hampshire		2	1	1	4
Rhode Island		3		1	4
Arizona	2	1			3
Idaho	2	1			3
Delaware		2		1	3
Vermont				3	3
Montana		2			2
Nevada	2				2
British Columbia			1		1
Hawai'i	1				1
Wyoming	1				1

[Ship69]

Imagine taking Kutztown, ESU, and Bloom, all within an hour or so of each other, and creating one team out of those players. Or in the west it would be Slippery Rock, Clarion, and IUP. I know ESU, Clarion, and Bloom are not world beaters, but that is how those other schools outside of PA are. Maybe with the exception of some of the West Virginia schools.

I'm no seer, but I wouldn't be surprised to see a school or two drop out for football within the next few years.

[Ship69]

NCAA football programs, by state:

State	FBS	FCS	D2	D3	Total
Pennsylvania	3	8	17	26	54
Ohio	8	2	10	21	41
Texas	12	8	7	10	37
North Carolina	7	7	14	4	32
New York	3	8	2	18	31
Massachusetts	2	2	5	20	29
Illinois	3	4	2	19	28
Minnesota	1		9	15	25
Virginia	3	7	3	10	23
California	7	4	2	8	21
Michigan	5		8	7	20
Wisconsin	1			18	19
Indiana	4	3	2	9	18
Iowa	2	2	1	11	16
Georgia	4	3	7	2	16
Tennessee	4	6	3	3	16
Missouri	1	2	10	2	15
Alabama	4	4	4	2	14
Florida	7	4	2		13
South Carolina	2	7	4		13
Oklahoma	3		9		12
Louisiana	5	6		1	12
West Virginia	2		9	1	12
Arkansas	2	2	6	1	11
Mississippi	3	3	2	2	10
Kentucky	3	3	2	2	10
Colorado	3	1	6		10
Connecticut	1	3	2	4	10
Maryland	2	2	1	5	10
Oregon	2	1	1	5	9
New Jersey	1	2		6	9
South Dakota		2	5		7
Washington	2	1	1	3	7
Kansas	2		4		6
Utah	3	2	1		6
Maine		1		5	6
Nebraska	1		3	1	5
New Mexico	2		3		5
North Dakota		2	2		4
D.C.		2		2	4
New Hampshire		2	1	1	4
Rhode Island		3		1	4
Arizona	2	1			3
Idaho	2	1			3
Delaware		2		1	3
Vermont				3	3
Montana		2			2
Nevada	2				2
British Columbia			1		1
Hawai'i	1				1
Wyoming	1				1

Well, that kind of says it all. Amazing a state the size of California has so few D2 programs. Those of us in the East, other than just West Chester and East Stroud, should certainly be recruiting NJ (and I think Mac is starting to do that). I'd like see Ship make more of a play for Maryland as well.

[Horror Child]

Well, that kind of says it all. Amazing a state the size of California has so few D2 programs. Those of us in the East, other than just West Chester and East Stroud, should certainly be recruiting NJ (and I think Mac is starting to do that). I'd like see Ship make more of a play for Maryland as well.

Even fewer than what's shown in the table.

[Fightingscot82]

Well, that kind of says it all. Amazing a state the size of California has so few D2 programs. Those of us in the East, other than just West Chester and East Stroud, should certainly be recruiting NJ (and I think Mac is starting to do that). I'd like see Ship make more of a play for Maryland as well.

There are nearly two dozen DII schools in California but the DII football programs have all gone elsewhere. UC Davis was a national power decades ago before moving up. Azusa Pacific and Humboldt State cut their programs within the last few years.

[Matt Burglund]

Even fewer than what's shown in the table.

Oof. Should be zero. I found this chart and didn't update it. Thanks for pointing that out.

[ESU Warrior]

Well, that kind of says it all. Amazing a state the size of California has so few D2 programs. Those of us in the East, other than just West Chester and East Stroud, should certainly be recruiting NJ (and I think Mac is starting to do that). I'd like see Ship make more of a play for Maryland as well.

The problem is those NJ kids get out of state tuition, so it is much more expensive. I remember a poster posting about Shep not long ago. I may have part of this wrong, but I vaguely remember someone saying a bordering state can still get in state tuition at Shep. That is a HUGE advantage.

For PA schools when they recruit an NJ kid, and there is a a ton of talent there, they need to allocate more money
to that kid in scholarship dollars as opposed to an in state kid. You can basically get 3 kids for the price of 1 in LA bs NJ (money wise).

[Ship69]

The problem is those NJ kids get out of state tuition, so it is much more expensive. I remember a poster posting about Shep not long ago. I may have part of this wrong, but I vaguely remember someone saying a bordering state can still get in state tuition at Shep. That is a HUGE advantage.

For PA schools when they recruit an NJ kid, and there is a a ton of talent there, they need to allocate more money
to that kid in scholarship dollars as opposed to an in state kid. You can basically get 3 kids for the price of 1 in LA bs NJ (money wise).

I believe Ship is giving a break to Jersey kids now, as well as some in Md.

[EastStroud13]

In the endless talks of FCS, GVSU fans always seem to cite the lack of FCS schools in Michigan as a reason to stay in D2. To me, that's an opportunity begging. I think they could be very competitive, very quickly at the FCS level. Same with Ferris, though there really haven't been much in the way of Ferris rumblings like there are with GVSU.

[Fightingscot82]

In the endless talks of FCS, GVSU fans always seem to cite the lack of FCS schools in Michigan as a reason to stay in D2. To me, that's an opportunity begging. I think they could be very competitive, very quickly at the FCS level. Same with Ferris, though there really haven't been much in the way of Ferris rumblings like there are with GVSU.

I think its the potential to be the perennial best D2 department in the country to the unknown of D1. Will they turn out 14k a year to see GVSU football play Illinois State? Maybe not. Especially if they start losing more often.

[ShoNuff]

Number of college football programs by state (state 2021 population):

Michigan: 20 (10.1 million)
Ohio: 39 (11.8 million)
Pennsylvania: 54 (13 million)

I think that's a huge factor in this. The best players in Michigan go to either UM or MSU or out-of-state P5. The next tier down goes to the directional schools (CMU, EMU, WMU) or out of state. Probably some of those kids also go to Ferris and GVSU.

In PA, because there are 10 DIs (including Pitt, PSU and Temple), the trickle-down of talent to the PSAC has a longer way to go. Plus there are six states that border PA, and some of them cross the border to recruit.

I don't think the system in Pennsylvania is set up for non-D1 programs to become national powers. The numbers don't work. They did back in the 1990s, when Frank C recruited against Youngstown State and Villanova and Towson, etc. Most of the PSAC was playing "small college" football at the time. In the past 25 years, the rest of the league has caught up (or passed) IUP. But now there are too many people fishing a pond with fewer fish.

I can't speak to Shepherd's situation. They had ~29 scholarships in 2020.

This isn't excuses. It's the way the commonwealth is set up. We've limited ourselves.

Thank you @MattBurlgund ! was going to mention this...but not as detailed as you did.

[ShoNuff]

NCAA football programs, by state:

State	FBS	FCS	D2	D3	Total
Pennsylvania	3	8	17	26	54
Ohio	8	2	10	21	41
Texas	12	8	7	10	37
North Carolina	7	7	14	4	32
New York	3	8	2	18	31
Massachusetts	2	2	5	20	29
Illinois	3	4	2	19	28
Minnesota	1		9	15	25
Virginia	3	7	3	10	23
California	7	4	2	8	21
Michigan	5		8	7	20
Wisconsin	1			18	19
Indiana	4	3	2	9	18
Iowa	2	2	1	11	16
Georgia	4	3	7	2	16
Tennessee	4	6	3	3	16
Missouri	1	2	10	2	15
Alabama	4	4	4	2	14
Florida	7	4	2		13
South Carolina	2	7	4		13
Oklahoma	3		9		12
Louisiana	5	6		1	12
West Virginia	2		9	1	12
Arkansas	2	2	6	1	11
Mississippi	3	3	2	2	10
Kentucky	3	3	2	2	10
Colorado	3	1	6		10
Connecticut	1	3	2	4	10
Maryland	2	2	1	5	10
Oregon	2	1	1	5	9
New Jersey	1	2		6	9
South Dakota		2	5		7
Washington	2	1	1	3	7
Kansas	2		4		6
Utah	3	2	1		6
Maine		1		5	6
Nebraska	1		3	1	5
New Mexico	2		3		5
North Dakota		2	2		4
D.C.		2		2	4
New Hampshire		2	1	1	4
Rhode Island		3		1	4
Arizona	2	1			3
Idaho	2	1			3
Delaware		2		1	3
Vermont				3	3
Montana		2			2
Nevada	2				2
British Columbia			1		1
Hawai'i	1				1
Wyoming	1				1

Thanks again! Excellent data....

[CHIP72]

Yep. It's a long par-5 from Ram Stadium to Maryland.

Fun fact, it's a shorter drive from Shepherdstown, West Virginia to New York City than it is from Shepherdstown to Beckley, West Virginia.

Part of the reason why I (selfishly) wanted Shepherd in the PSAC is because it is actually reasonable for me to go to games there; it is less than 1 1/2 hours from suburban DC*. (This is also why I'm peeved the PSAC apparently will not play its planned but canceled 2020 conference schedule in 2022; IUP was scheduled to play at Shepherd.) But the PSAC also makes sense for Shepherd regardless of that because Shepherd is closer to most PSAC East teams than it is to most MEC teams. Shep was really out on an island far to the east in the MEC.

FWIW, when my girlfriend and I attended the East Stroudsburg/Shepherd game this past season, after the game we walked out to the roadway bridge over the Potomac River to check out the river views. It only took us 10 minutes to walk (slowly) out there from Ram Stadium.

*For similar reasons, this is also why I really want some PSAC teams to schedule home and home series with Bowie State, which is the closest D2 team to where I live. But my desire isn't just self-serving; playing Bowie State would be mutually beneficial in terms of opponent quality and travel distance for both teams involved. That's especially true for Shepherd, Shippensburg, West Chester, and to a lesser degree Kutztown.