OT: PIAA Wrestling public vs. private

[IUPNation]

It may take years, but legislative changes have failed for years. The problem apparently is the use of non-boundary/boundary. As the PIAA has said “That definition of boundary and non-boundary is flawed because many (public) schools take tuition kids or teachers bring their children in (from another school district),” Lombardi said. “As soon as you do that, they become non-boundary.”

…and it’s easy to just use a relatives address to get a kid enrolled in another district. It was well known suburban public’s outside Philly had city kids playing basketball for them.

But nobody talks about that..

[iupgroundhog]

…and it’s easy to just use a relatives address to get a kid enrolled in another district. It was well known suburban public’s outside Philly had city kids playing basketball for them.

But nobody talks about that..

It's an issue of proportionality. And the ratio is probably about 50:1. Probably higher.

[EyeoftheHawk]

It may take years, but legislative changes have failed for years. The problem apparently is the use of non-boundary/boundary. As the PIAA has said “That definition of boundary and non-boundary is flawed because many (public) schools take tuition kids or teachers bring their children in (from another school district),” Lombardi said. “As soon as you do that, they become non-boundary.”

Formalizing a definition wouldn’t be too difficult. Again, Lombardi has been hiding behind the 1972 statute and his random quotes about why it would be difficult instead of actually earning his paycheck and working on it. Sometimes folks need a little nudge. ;)

[Bart]

Formalizing a definition wouldn’t be too difficult. Again, Lombardi has been hiding behind the 1972 statute and his random quotes about why it would be difficult instead of actually earning his paycheck and working on it. Sometimes folks need a little nudge. ;)

Could be, but one group is fighting for their very existence and the other for state championships.

[IUPNation]

Formalizing a definition wouldn’t be too difficult. Again, Lombardi has been hiding behind the 1972 statute and his random quotes about why it would be difficult instead of actually earning his paycheck and working on it. Sometimes folks need a little nudge. ;)

Well a large swath of Pennsylvania needs a little nudge and realize these numerous dinky school districts that are set up for a time long gone by needs to be reformed long before they fix the issues of the PIAA.

I bet those legislators you were talking to don't have school district consolidations on their radar when it absolutely needs to happen.

There should not be so many A and AA sized public high schools in the part of the state that is in long term population decline.

[EastStroud13]

It's interesting because a Phila. Charter school is different than other private schools and Catholic/religion-supported schools.

Imhotep Charter has a city-wide lottery system for admissions. There is a waiting list. My question is whether they have a special admissions program for athletes. Does anybody know how that works, or how it really works?

I don't know exactly how it works, but I do know that charter schools can operate under slightly different rules than the schools that are actually operated by the School District of Philadelphia.

[EyeoftheHawk]

Well a large swath of Pennsylvania needs a little nudge and realize these numerous dinky school districts that are set up for a time long gone by needs to be reformed long before they fix the issues of the PIAA.

I bet those legislators you were talking to don't have school district consolidations on their radar when it absolutely needs to happen.

There should not be so many A and AA sized public high schools.

Separate matter but in reality, there aren’t great options for consolidation in this specific area and the small schools are doing quite well, at least in Indiana County. The couple where consolidation might make sense would be a nightmare in terms of getting kids to school without having to ride a bus for more than an hour. From what I understand, the Purchase Line School District is the largest in the state and is still 1A so it’s hard for them to pair with anyone. The Saltsburg/Blairsville consolidation to create River Valley made perfect sense and it got done. We don’t need to open this can of worms but the entire public education system could use a massive overhaul to be more reflective of the times. The size of the schools here makes them just big enough to keep going, which I guess might be the worst place to be.

Sticking to athletics, the small schools here do quite well with three Heritage Conference girls basketball teams making it to Hershey in the last two years. District 6 girls basketball is probably the best district top to bottom in PA. Marion Center recently won a state championship in girls cross country and finished third another time. Homer Center played for state championships in girls basketball, football, and baseball. Penns Manor had some deep runs in football and girls basketball. I know I’m missing some things but pound for pound they’ve held their own until they run into private schools. :)

[IUPNation]

Separate matter but in reality, there aren’t great options for consolidation in this specific area and the small schools are doing quite well, at least in Indiana County. The couple where consolidation might make sense would be a nightmare in terms of getting kids to school without having to ride a bus for more than an hour. From what I understand, the Purchase Line School District is the largest in the state and is still 1A so it’s hard for them to pair with anyone. The Saltsburg/Blairsville consolidation to create River Valley made perfect sense and it got done. We don’t need to open this can of worms but the entire public education system could use a massive overhaul to be more reflective of the times. The size of the schools here makes them just big enough to keep going, which I guess might be the worst place to be.

1. The Philadelphia School District is the largest by students.

2. The Keystone Central School District is the largest by land...and covers two high schools.

3. It's not that uncommon for kids in Southeastern PA to be on a bus for a bit of time mainly because the buses are stuck in rush hour traffic along with the rest of us. It's just part of the day. Most of Indiana County doesn't have rush hour traffic. The only traffic backup is Oakland Avenue!!

4. Indiana County should have three school districts max serving a population of 83000. As of the last census the county had 17.4% of it's population under 18 or 14,707 kids. In comparison, The Downingtown School district (the 6th largest public school district by student population) alone serves 13000 students they funnel into two regular high school and one STEM Academy. Indiana High School should be twice it's size. I'd go further with River Valley and annex part of United to make a full southern tier school district. Then take the other part of United...along with Penns Manor and Homer Center and merge it into the Indiana School District. Indiana High becomes a bigger player. Then you take Purchase Line and Marion Center and make it the Northern Tier School District. The grade schools would still be out there, so the little kids don't travel far but the high schools need to be consolidated. If Indiana County was growing fast like Chester or Cumberland Counties...then consolidation wouldn't be an issue...you would have to be planning for expansions. Indiana County is only slightly bigger than Chester County in land size. It has 7 full school districts and have some areas in schools districts anchored in neighboring counties. Chester County has 11 full school districts with some that spill into neighboring counties but has 450,000 more people. It doesn't make sense to us living in the east that yinz can't be consolidated. It just sounds like excuses to us in a region that is 42 percent of the state's economic activity and 38 percent of the it's tax base. That's 5 counties out of 67 and we have less say in Harrisburg than Indiana County apparently.

5. The reality is that a vast majority of school districts west of the Susquehanna are set up for 1964 and not 2024. For every North Allegheny or Mt Lebanon you have 5 dinky ones that need to merge together. You don't need so many high schools. The mills are gone. The old factories aren't coming back. The mines are going to keep dwindling. Philadelphia moved on from it's industrial past and has altered the way their school district is set up in 2013 (there are only 18 legacy neighborhood high schools left) to better meet the needs of today..not how they were in the 1920's when a lot of the old legacy highs schools were built....yinz need to do the same. Cletus and April Mae June need to stop trying to make something that is never coming back "Great Again". They have to figure out a new way to be "Great". There are possibilities for Rural PA in today's economy. Run to the light Rural PA....and the 315 pound Fat Orange Turd is not going to save you. Ever.

Sticking to athletics, the small schools here do quite well with three Heritage Conference girls basketball teams making it to Hershey in the last two years. District 6 girls basketball is probably the best district top to bottom in PA. Marion Center recently won a state championship in girls cross country and finished third another time. Homer Center played for state championships in girls basketball, football, and baseball. Penns Manor had some deep runs in football and girls basketball. I know I’m missing some things but pound for pound they’ve held their own until they run into private schools. :)

What IUPNation hears: I want the private schools out of the way so Indiana County schools have no obstacles to win state titles that we are entitled to because we are a rural community and rural areas should dictate the rules and get everything their way at the expense of the side of the state that pays most of the bills. :-)

[iupgroundhog]

What IUPNation hears: I want the private schools out of the way so Indiana County schools have no obstacles to win state titles that we are entitled to because we are a rural community and rural areas should dictate the rules and get everything their way at the expense of the side of the state that pays most of the bills. :-)

Great post until the last paragraph. I agree with you that there is a mindset in western PA thwarting school consolidation. But that is not the topic of this thread. It's not rural vs. urban/suburban. It's boundary vs. non-boundary. The results bear out the inequity and it's undeniable.

I started this thread because it hit home when my alma mater got upended by Bethlehem Catholic the past 2 years. That school, Central Mountain, is rural/small town/small college town, it's a lot of things. However, on the big school level in wrestling (AAA) there are a lot more D1, D3, and D7 schools whose chances at a state title are truncated because of Bethlehem Catholic's ability to recruit. Among smaller schools (AA), it's been stated and restated that a school with a small student population cannot compete with these recruiting factories. Things have to change and I think they will.

[IUPNation]

Great post until the last paragraph. I agree with you that there is a mindset in western PA thwarting school consolidation. But that is not the topic of this thread. It's not rural vs. urban/suburban. It's boundary vs. non-boundary. The results bear out the inequity and it's undeniable.

I started this thread because it hit home when my alma mater got upended by Bethlehem Catholic the past 2 years. That school, Central Mountain, is rural/small town/small college town, it's a lot of things. However, on the big school level in wrestling (AAA) there are a lot more D1, D3, and D7 schools whose chances at a state title are truncated because of Bethlehem Catholic's ability to recruit. Among smaller schools (AA), it's been stated and restated that a school with a small student population cannot compete with these recruiting factories. Things have to change and I think they will.

So then there needs to be more classifications in wrestling. That is the fix to me. Move Bethlehem Catholic up along with other private schools that can recruit and big publics that have more students to choose from...why are there less classifications?

What else is Bethlehem Catholic even good at? Are they focusing on wrestling? I looked it up and it seems they have had other state titles in the past in various sports but it seems the only sport they repeat a lot in is wrestling. That is what gets lost on here...private schools may focus a lot of their athletic resources on one sport. Bethlehem Catholic in wrestling, St Joe's in foosball. Whatever school in basketball. There aren't many private schools that just dominate in athletics across the board like some big public schools do.

The reform of the PIAA comes down to more classification levels and a new way to determine which level each school in each sport should compete in...

If there was a 5A or 6A in wrestling...you move Bethlehem Catholic up to it with other programs on it's level. Then your school competes with other programs it's size.

You don't punish schools for making an effort. That is IUP Rule bull****. Look at the damage that did to IUP.

There is a problem...but i don't like the suggestions for the fixes. Because there is inequity going both ways. My now closed high school could not compete with Norristown High School in the 1980's. There are private schools in PA that can't compete with publics...so it's really not about boundary vs non boundary but who has the money to pay to play. Downingtown East and West can easily smack down Bishop Shanahan who can draw students from all over Chester County.

So...the whole issue is more complex than what is being said on here.

[iupgroundhog]

So then there needs to be more classifications in wrestling. That is the fix to me.

So, on the one hand you've ranted about "Who is the best in the state?" when there would be a separation of schools but now your recommendation is to create more classifications. Just sayin'.

[IUPNation]

So, on the one hand you've ranted about "Who is the best in the state?" when there would be a separation of schools but now your recommendation is to create more classifications. Just sayin'.

There are 6 for foosball and basketball..why are there less for wrestling? I’m not sure what you are getting at..

[iupgroundhog]

There are 6 for foosball and basketball..why are there less for wrestling? I’m not sure what you are getting at..

What I was getting at is that one of your arguments has been that if private schools participated in a separate division on the state level then it would remain unanswered regarding who is the best in the state as a result of breaking it into separate classifications. Now, though, with regards to wrestling, your suggestion is to create more classifications, which would make it even more unclear who is truly the best in the state. The way I read that, it is inconsistent.

[IUPNation]

What I was getting at is that one of your arguments has been that if private schools participated in a separate division on the state level then it would remain unanswered regarding who is the best in the state as a result of breaking it into separate classifications. Now, though, with regards to wrestling, your suggestion is to create more classifications, which would make it even more unclear who is truly the best in the state. The way I read that, it is inconsistent.

No not would sort everyone into better classifications. I’m sure there is one public school that can go toe to toe with Bethlehem.

[iupgroundhog]

No not would sort everyone into better classifications. I’m sure there is one public school that can go toe to toe with Bethlehem.

There really is not. That's the point of this entire thread.