OT: PIAA Wrestling public vs. private

[iupgroundhog]

It's not. I bring it up because you people don't frame the problem properly.

When you do then we can talk....and you did to a degree in this post.

The public/private issue is not a problem everywhere. It is not a problem in Southeastern Pennsylvania. So why should our private schools be punished when they publics can still kick their asses?

It is.

[jrshooter]

It's interesting because a Phila. Charter school is different than other private schools and Catholic/religion-supported schools.

Imhotep Charter has a city-wide lottery system for admissions. There is a waiting list. My question is whether they have a special admissions program for athletes. Does anybody know how that works, or how it really works?

That's a very good question. And I don't even think I'd have a huge problem with that, because what would be the difference between that, and the city's CAPA offering preferred admissions status to young dramatic savants? They're both looking to reach higher levels, and in both cases, there's the possibility of at least a free college education at the end of it.

[IUPNation]

He knows his argument has no merit. If he was a basketball coach he’d be fouling with 10 seconds left down 20. Two more games went final in Hershey.

Cardinal O’Hara defeats Spring Ford

Imhotep Charter defeats Franklin Regional

That’s now 7 championships for AAU teams and 1 for public schools. The public schools are guaranteed a win in boys 6A so we could be headed for a 10-2 tally. No matter what happens, AAU teams have already won more than half and only Marion Center girls in AA came close to pulling an upset. The others were double digit margins with several complete blowouts.

It has merit. You just have a problem with private schools. You also seem to forget that private and especially Catholic High Schools focus basketball a bit more than foosball due to the lower costs.

My high school was awful in foosball. However we had Phil Martelli (former head coach of St Joe's and now an assistant at Meatchicken) as head coach and Geno Auriemma was his assistant for a few years...and we always made the PCL playoffs.

You didn't get this upset when publics took 5 of 6 foosball titles.

Boys soccer...was split 2/2 public vs private in titles.

Girls soccer - the publics won the three top classifications and the Mennonite school was the 1A

Girls Volleyball was split 2/2...and one of the private schools that won was the successor to my old high school.

[Bart]

It's not.

This is a problem being completely overblown because Central and Western PA private schools are doing well against the too many dinky public schools in the same area. Western PA in particular is long overdue for a massive consolidation of schools for a declining population.

Southern Columbia doesn't seem to fall victim to private schools. They just win state title after state title for years and no private school has dominated them.

At least present the problem as it really is instead of saying every private school in every section of the state needs to be punished and banished.

That's because they attract players from other schools who transfer in to play football. But don't be fooled, when they beat schools from western Pa. there are complaints that Southern should be playing with bigger boys.

[IUPNation]

That's because they attract players from other schools who transfer in to play football. But don't be fooled, when they beat schools from western Pa. there are complains that Southern shouldn't be playing with bigger boys.

I just wish the issue was framed for the actual problem and not that it's a problem at all levels in every corner of the Commonwealth and we must banish the privates.

There is room for everyone and the criteria on how schools are classified need to be changed and updated for today's society.

[jrshooter]

I just wish the issue was framed for the actual problem and not that it's a problem at all levels in every corner of the Commonwealth and we must banish the privates.

There is room for everyone and the criteria on how schools are classified need to be changed and updated for today's society.

If everybody is so wrapped around "fairness," what is fair about telling non-boundary schools that if you don't play by the rules we like, you can't compete for a chance to be the best 6A team in the state, or the best 1A team in the state?

[iupgroundhog]

If everybody is so wrapped around "fairness," what is fair about telling non-boundary schools that if you don't play by the rules we like, you can't compete for a chance to be the best 6A team in the state, or the best 1A team in the state?

You've just made me realize that I'm hung up on fairness. Where did my life go wrong?

The issue is pretty simple. It is about boundary vs. non-boundary and that some schools exploit the non-boundary status to produce dominant sports teams. That is what is happening.

Also, the argument that focuses on the individual athlete doesn't change the discussion because those athletes can still compete on a higher level if that's what they want even if they are not competing under the current state playoff system.

[jrshooter]

You've just made me realize that I'm hung up on fairness. Where did my life go wrong?

The issue is pretty simple. It is about boundary vs. non-boundary and that some schools exploit the non-boundary status to produce dominant sports teams. That is what is happening.

Here's the thing about this "fairness" you cling to.

Life is not fair.

Every day, people are losing accounts to bigger companies. Every day, somebody is working at a job that is below them because the chips didn't fall their way. Every day, some deserving kid doesn't get into his/her target school because somebody else's daddy paid for a new campus building.

So yes, maybe the real-life lesson might be more valuable than your ideal.

[IUPNation]

If everybody is so wrapped around "fairness," what is fair about telling non-boundary schools that if you don't play by the rules we like, you can't compete for a chance to be the best 6A team in the state, or the best 1A team in the state?

It's not.

It's people still thinking it's the 1980's and that what we always have done is still the way to do it.

There were no charter schools in the 80's or if there were they were few and far between.

The Philadelphia Public and Catholic Leagues were not PIAA members.

Schools have consolidated...some areas have grown and others have declined.

The whole PIAA needs an overhaul on how it determines a classification for any school.

They need to focus on more than just enrollment. They need to have schools submit athletic budgets. There may be even more criteria...

That Imani Christian in Pittsburgh might have been put up to 3 or 4A under a revamped criteria.

Same for Bishop Guilfoyle.

There can be logical solution to be inclusive for all and to classify them properly...and if that did happen these privates that can afford to pump money and recruit student athletes would get bumped up higher than they are now.....

Remember is it is the Pennsylvania Interscholastic Athletic Association. It's not just for Public schools.

There is a problem. There needs to be a overhaul. But I don't believe there should be separate but equal.

I mean it's almost like some are offended and OUTRAGED that a private school chooses to compete on the same level as your affluent public high schools.

The fact is most private schools don't win ****......

[IUPNation]

You've just made me realize that I'm hung up on fairness. Where did my life go wrong?

The issue is pretty simple. It is about boundary vs. non-boundary and that some schools exploit the non-boundary status to produce dominant sports teams. That is what is happening.

Also, the argument that focuses on the individual athlete doesn't change the discussion because those athletes can still compete on a higher level if that's what they want even if they are not competing under the current state playoff system.

In the end you still aren't being fair.

You guys aren't even trying to discuss how everyone can stay in one tournament under a revamped criteria.

Separate but Equal is awful lesson to teach kids....

[EyeoftheHawk]

Good discussion with local legislators this morning. Seems the PIAA is squarely in their sights for a lot of reasons, including this one. I heard some things I didn’t expect to hear that were interesting.

For the “life isn’t fair” crowd, I totally agree. I also believe that when there are reasonable ways to make things more fair whether it be sports or taxes, you should strive for that and not just roll over and show your belly. To be clear, nobody on the leading edge of this effort wants to remove private schools from the PIAA or not let them compete for championships. The issue is appropriate classification and the potential for having a public (boundary) and private (non-boundary) champion.

[IUPNation]

Good discussion with local legislators this morning. Seems the PIAA is squarely in their sights for a lot of reasons, including this one. I heard some things I didn’t expect to hear that were interesting.

For the “life isn’t fair” crowd, I totally agree. I also believe that when there are reasonable ways to make things more fair whether it be sports or taxes, you should strive for that and not just roll over and show your belly. To be clear, nobody on the leading edge of this effort wants to remove private schools from the PIAA or not let them compete for championships. The issue is appropriate classification and the potential for having a public (boundary) and private (non-boundary) champion.

So separate but equal.

Boooooo!!!

Thats the easy way out and teaches bad lesson.

What part of PA are these legislators from that talked to you?

[EyeoftheHawk]

The dust has settled in Hershey and 9 of 12 championships were won by non-boundary schools, so 75%. That actually tracks almost exactly with recent history. One of the stats we were given is that non-boundary schools account for approximately 20% of the state’s schools but have won 77% of the championships in basketball and 42% in football. I forget what the date range was. That’s a staggering statistic and doesn’t even count the overall dominance of non-boundary schools in the brackets that eliminate boundary schools well before the final. It’s good to know the right people are serious about this and have been doing their homework beyond the anecdotal “It’s not fair,” argument.

It will likely take a while, even a couple years to get something done, but change is on the way.

[IUPNation]

The dust has settled in Hershey and 9 of 12 championships were won by non-boundary schools, so 75%. That actually tracks almost exactly with recent history. One of the stats we were given is that non-boundary schools account for approximately 20% of the state’s schools but have won 77% of the championships in basketball and 42% in football. I forget what the date range was. That’s a staggering statistic and doesn’t even count the overall dominance of non-boundary schools in the brackets that eliminate boundary schools well before the final. It’s good to know the right people are serious about this and have been doing their homework beyond the anecdotal “It’s not fair,” argument.

It will likely take a while, even a couple years to get something done, but change is on the way.

Funny how small private colleges do well in basketball too..

It is like private schools target certain sports to excel at…

So what are the changes? Why won’t you tell me where these people you talked are from? What is their agenda?

[Bart]

The dust has settled in Hershey and 9 of 12 championships were won by non-boundary schools, so 75%. That actually tracks almost exactly with recent history. One of the stats we were given is that non-boundary schools account for approximately 20% of the state’s schools but have won 77% of the championships in basketball and 42% in football. I forget what the date range was. That’s a staggering statistic and doesn’t even count the overall dominance of non-boundary schools in the brackets that eliminate boundary schools well before the final. It’s good to know the right people are serious about this and have been doing their homework beyond the anecdotal “It’s not fair,” argument.

It will likely take a while, even a couple years to get something done, but change is on the way.

It may take years, but legislative changes have failed for years. The problem apparently is the use of non-boundary/boundary. As the PIAA has said “That definition of boundary and non-boundary is flawed because many (public) schools take tuition kids or teachers bring their children in (from another school district),” Lombardi said. “As soon as you do that, they become non-boundary.”