"HURST OUT OF PSAC?

[Fightingscot82]

How are the triads working? One piggy bank?

Nope. Endowment (foundations), alumni associations, SGA, etc. are all legally separate entities that can't be forced to merge. I imagine eventually they will as each campus gradually loses its unique identity. The mothership could ask them to voluntarily merge things, but from what I've been told fundraising for rank and file alumni has TANKED at these schools, even when told their donation will benefit students at their specific campus. I don't know if that was ever a winnable battle though. There are still Edinboro alumni out there pissed off about becoming a university 40 years ago.

[Mikefln]

Question is how much (if any) ROI comes with the move?

As we know the NEC isn't exactly the SEC. It's not like ticket revenue is going to change at all (it may get worse). Add in all the travel increases. This just seems like a reach on so many levels.

I am not a Mercyhurst alum or have any association with the school other than being lightly recruited there in the 90's. With that said, while this is a sports move, I think the decision to make the jump was more about raising awareness of the school and upping the profile of the school to creat a better financial situation for the actual school and not necessarily the athletics program. I could be wrong, like I said I am not a stakeholder and have no info into any of it.

[Fightingscot82]

Not saying there are no differences. There are as Mercyhurst does not get the funding from the state that PASSHE institutions do. I am just pointing out that maybe this move to D1 works for Hurst maybe it doesn't. But they are not in dire straits like nation is implying.

Things aren't great though. I think this is a bold move to try to improve things.

Also, PASSHE gets the state funding because the state owns them. Its not like its a handout for the sake of preferential treatment. That's what Pitt and Penn State get. Speaking of Pitt, they just up and bought a building in Oakland for $35 million cash. A building they don't know how they'll use. Its a historic landmark, so that severely limits how they can use it.

[Mikefln]

Things aren't great though. I think this is a bold move to try to improve things.

Also, PASSHE gets the state funding because the state owns them. Its not like its a handout for the sake of preferential treatment. That's what Pitt and Penn State get. Speaking of Pitt, they just up and bought a building in Oakland for $35 million cash. A building they don't know how they'll use. Its a historic landmark, so that severely limits how they can use it.

I realize PASSHE gets state funding because the state owns them. I know it is not a handout and I don't believe I made it sound like it was, but if you or anyone took it that way, I do apologize.

As for Hurst, I agree it is a bold move, but if they are doing this for the reasons why I think they are, then I can understand being this bold. Yes, it is a huge uphill battle and the risks are high, but so is the reward.

As for Pitt, I do not blame them for buying any piece of real estate in Oakland they can get their hands on regardless if they have plans for it or not.

[iupgroundhog]

I realize PASSHE gets state funding because the state owns them. I know it is not a handout and I don't believe I made it sound like it was, but if you or anyone took it that way, I do apologize.

As for Hurst, I agree it is a bold move, but if they are doing this for the reasons why I think they are, then I can understand being this bold. Yes, it is a huge uphill battle and the risks are high, but so is the reward.

As for Pitt, I do not blame them for buying any piece of real estate in Oakland they can get their hands on regardless if they have plans for it or not.

Who knows for sure but I think Hurst believes the move gives them a bigger footprint. In contrast to the PSAC schools they are not in the market for students who are mainly from PA. If they increase awareness across a bigger swath of the NE and Midwest they would be able to increase their enrollment. You guys are talking about the reward. What is the reward? To become the next Wagner, LIU, Central Connecticut, or Chicago State? If they want to be the next Duquesne it's not going to happen.

[EastStroud13]

Now if you are asking strictly from an athleteic perspective if the move will work. Time will tell, but they have a long road ahead of them as you stated they are a middle-of-the-pack program in most sports and I do not see them improving enough to take on Duquesne who is head and shoulders better in football, and I am not sure who is good in the NEC in bball. Not sure where their wrestling program ends up which in my opinion is their strongest man's sport year in/ year out.

Realistically, the answer is that nobody in the NEC is good in bball. After Merrimack and Sacred Heart leave, Wagner and FDU are the closest they have to being "top dogs" but both are about #250 in KenPom on a good year. Hurst was not very good this past year, but the Hurst team of the previous few years was probably good enough to finish mid-pack in the current NEC.

Football, different story. Considering how bad they've been, the smart move is probably to just drop football altogether. It's tough to remake an entire football program, even tougher when you're trying to reclassify every sport to the D1 level.

[Fightingscot82]

Who knows for sure but I think Hurst believes the move gives them a bigger footprint. In contrast to the PSAC schools they are not in the market for students who are mainly from PA. If they increase awareness across a bigger swath of the NE and Midwest they would be able to increase their enrollment. You guys are talking about the reward. What is the reward? To become the next Wagner, LIU, Central Connecticut, or Chicago State? If they want to be the next Duquesne it's not going to happen.

I worked at a former NEC school for 10 years. There's some delusional thinking all around that conference and others like it. They truly believe that if the stars align, they make a Cinderella run in the tournament and become the next Gonzaga, Creighton, Wichita State, St. Peters, Loyola, Florida Gulf Coast, Virginia Commonwealth, etc. and their fortunes change overnight. The list goes on but the reality is nobody cares a year later and the situation never really changes. They'll play in front of fewer people at home because they'll maintain their Hurst base but lose the closer families of opponents. Their students will spend more time on buses and the school will have to shell out more for accommodations for those students to do school work while traveling more. The professors are going to get pissed because they aren't used to their athletes (maybe hockey) missing so much class. Eventually Manchel et al will want to be paid like a D1 coach and Mercyhurst won't have the money. Andy Toole was making $400k at RMU when they jumped to Horizon. I imagine they crunched the numbers on increased travel and estimates on NCAA payouts - but I wonder about coaching salaries and increased staffing. You can pay an entry level D2 assistant coach $30k but not D1.

[Mikefln]

Who knows for sure but I think Hurst believes the move gives them a bigger footprint. In contrast to the PSAC schools they are not in the market for students who are mainly from PA. If they increase awareness across a bigger swath of the NE and Midwest they would be able to increase their enrollment. You guys are talking about the reward. What is the reward? To become the next Wagner, LIU, Central Connecticut, or Chicago State? If they want to be the next Duquesne it's not going to happen.

Again I am not a Hurst person. To me, the reward is to create a better profile and get more financial stability. As you said, this is going to raise their exposure to areas outside of PA to attract students. As far as what they become, just because you will not be Duquesne let alone Harvard, does not mean you don't keep trying to chase them. That is what makes you better. I will never be as rich as Bezo's, Buffet, or Gates, but that does not stop me from trying to chase them. That is what allows me to improve my life, even though I failed, am failing, and more than likely will always fail miserably. The secret is even though I fail, I am better off than not even trying or doing the bare minimum.

So Mercyhurst does not become the next Duquesne, but in their chase, they raise enrollment by 40% (1,000 more undergrads), get their target of over $100 million endowment, and the incoming students are 10% more qualified than their current students, that is a huge reward. While I cannot say with any certainty, I think those are realistic goals to shoot for.

[iupgroundhog]

Again I am not a Hurst person. To me, the reward is to create a better profile and get more financial stability. As you said, this is going to raise their exposure to areas outside of PA to attract students. As far as what they become, just because you will not be Duquesne let alone Harvard, does not mean you don't keep trying to chase them. That is what makes you better. I will never be as rich as Bezo's, Buffet, or Gates, but that does not stop me from trying to chase them. That is what allows me to improve my life, even though I failed, am failing, and more than likely will always fail miserably. The secret is even though I fail, I am better off than not even trying or doing the bare minimum.

So Mercyhurst does not become the next Duquesne, but in their chase, they raise enrollment by 40% (1,000 more undergrads), get their target of over $100 million endowment, and the incoming students are 10% more qualified than their current students, that is a huge reward. While I cannot say with any certainty, I think those are realistic goals to shoot for.

I get what you are saying but i think what you don't mention is the risk. Sure, there are potential rewards. There is also a lot of risk.

Behind the superficialities like athletics is a school. Personally, considering all the competition for today's students, I don't think Mercyhurst, as a school, will see an increase in its allure to prospective students (customers).

[Mikefln]

I get what you are saying but i think what you don't mention is the risk. Sure, there are potential rewards. There is also a lot of risk.

Behind the superficialities like athletics is a school. Personally, considering all the competition for today's students, I don't think Mercyhurst, as a school, will see an increase in its allure to prospective students (customers).

I mentioned previously there were risk and that this is bold. You are right that it is risky to spend all this additional money traveling. For athletics at the financial risk of the school itself. I would argue that it would be just as risky doing nothing and staying in the PSAC where we know the current demographics show a decline of college-age kids. They are trying to throw a wider net out there. Time will tell if it pays off for them or not.

[IUPNation]

According to 2024 US News for rankings and Wikipedia for endowment and enrollment (they cite the source for that information):

Duquesne: 151 in National University’s; $472.1 million endowment; 6,074 undergrads; $77,708 per undergrad
Gannon: 260 in National University’s; $83.5 million endowment; 3,165 undergrads; $26,382 per undergrad
Mercyhurst: 54 Regional University’s North; $31.8 million endowment; 2,759 undergrads; $11,526 per undergrad* this is the oldest data set as it is from 2013. All others were from 2019 or more recent.
St. Vincent: 124 in National Liberal Art's College's; $113 million endowment; 1,375 undergrads; $82,182 per undergrad
St Francis: 30 Regional University’s North; $52 million endowment; 1,691 undergrads; $30,751 per undergrad


Slippery Rock: 50 Regional University’s North; $16.5 million endowment; 6,815 undergrads; $2,421 per undergrad ** They did not list the source so not sure how accurate or how up to date this info is.
IUP: 320 in National University's; $60.6 million endowment; 9,308 undergrads; $6,510 per undergrad
Millersville: 116 Regional University’s North; $43.9 million endowment; 6,500 undergrads; $6,754 per undergrad
Shippensburg: 104 Regional University’s North; $36.9 million endowment; 6,942 undergrads; $5,315 per undergrad
West Chester: 209 in National University's; $47.2 million endowment; 14,712 undergrads; $3,208 per undergrad


Looking at this data, while I admit Mercyhurst data (from 11 years ago, have to assume it is better now) does not paint a rosy picture, I would be more worried about IUP and it fellow PHSSE schools as their data is worse.

But IUP gets state funding….

[boatcapt]

Well IUP looks down at both of them so there’s that.


:-)

And are ALSO a forgotten memory.

;-))

[IUPNation]

And are ALSO a forgotten memory.

;-))

Win or Lose..IUP is ALWAYS better.

:-)

[EastStroud13]

As a general point of comparison, here's how Mercyhurst compares to their new NEC companions in their 3-year rolling average of Massey ratings. It's not a perfect rating system but it provides a decent frame of reference for how they fit.

Football

1. Duquesne - 252.7 (229 in 2021; 288 in 2022; 241 in 2023)
2. St. Francis - 252.7 (281; 201; 276)
3. Robert Morris - 333.3 (285; 421; 294)
4. LIU - 343.7 (399; 325; 307)
5. Stonehill - 347.7 (375; 359; 309)
6. CCSU - 352.7 (325; 354; 379)
7. Wagner - 433.3 (492; 445; 363)
8. Mercyhurst - 537.0 (473; 588; 550)

Basketball

1. Wagner - 263.3 (168 in 2021-22; 329 in 2022-23; 293 in 2023-24)
2. Chicago St - 365.7 (432; 357; 308)
3. FDU - 371.3 (479; 287; 348)
4. CCSU - 372.0 (420; 408; 288)
5. Mercyhurst - 395.3 (336; 298; 552)
6. St. Francis - 397.7 (387; 361; 445)
7. LIU - 427.7 (266; 587; 430)
8. Stonehill - 472.7 (540; 351; 527)
9. Le Moyne - 488.0 (597; 513; 354)

Hurst may not have had a great 2023-24 season in basketball, but they at least have competed at the NEC level in the not-too-distant past. Can't say the same about football.

[Tdobson]

Hold on, I never knew Duquesne was any good in football. Are they?