18th PSAC Member: Lackawanna College?

[iupgroundhog]

This is all what the federal department of education has on file.

Lackawanna reports 1,939 students. 1/3 are age 25 or older. Open admissions profile (usually means complete admissions packet and furnish proof of HS diploma or GED). Their total housing has a capacity of 313 students. That's not missing a digit.

Lackawanna is in the process of merging with Peirce College, 125 miles South. Peirce reports 872 students. 91% of students are age 25 or older. No housing.

In total, 2,811 students and about the enrollment size of Lock Haven.

But we know in college athletics size doesn't matter.

[EastStroud13]

I will try to give you guys some first hand information here.

Lackawanna currently has 3 dorms, 1 main academic building in downtown Scranton, a student union (the old catholic youth center), and a dining hall. Their student union is where their basketballl, wrestling, and volleyball play. They also have branch campuses, In Philadelphia they have Pierce, and north of us here in NEPA they have a campus for the students that want to study fracking.

They own quit a bit of land in the area, and have been sitting on it and waiting for the right time to upgrade (they have been trying to get into the PSAC for a couple of years. All the way back when CU got knocked out). Their footnball program is solid., They are one of the best JUCO's in the nation (last chance U actually waned to do their season 5 on them). Their baseball team just lost in the world series this week.

There was a coaches meeting on Tuesday night to explain this move, and I'll share what I was told. Since it has been in the works they may get the expediated 2 year transition. They will still play a JUCO schedule for 2025, but anticipate them on the schedules the following year.

Yes they share the local high school stadium, but to be honest those locker rooms are bigger and nicer than the ones most PSAC schools offer to their visitors. They are also planning on putting in their own turf field right near Memorial stadium as they own a bunch of the old warehouses in the area. They are also in negotiationis to purchase RIverfront Sports complex (its a indoor turfed facility with 3 soccer fields. Many of the local high school teams rent it out during inclement weather. There is also 3 indoor basketball courts, and a gym, so their sports teams can have their own "bubble" to use year round). They also own a giant medical building across the street from their main academic building, which houses their dining hall. Word is that is going to be possibly built into a big dormitory. They do acknowledged that their facilites do need upgrades, and they do have plans to build a new athletic faciltiy too (where I do not know).

As far as scholarships; I was told "they want to compete and offer up to the max".

As far as football, their team is good. They have competed in many bowl games and they hav flown their team around the country to compete with some of the best. They are committed to winning. I've seen them play and they have some dogs. They put out MANY D1 and D2 kids each year. Of course this will change now as they need the NCAA qualifiers, but they do have a reputation in the region and out of state. Also, there is virtually no college football in the Scranton area (Keystone added it 7 years ago but they are about to close their campus. That was a last ditch effort to bring in more bodies for money).

Lackawanna does have money. They tried to purchase Clarks Summit University when that closed a few years ago, and were ready to purcahse Keystone college until they received their life preserver to stay open.

From a football standpoint Coach Duda has been there for over 20 years. He played in the NFL and is very experienced. In the last month or so, since rumor of them joining the PSAC has been around up here, there has been some positive buzz. In the Scranton area we have roughly 75,000 people and when you look at the surrounding counties you have iver half a million. What does this all mean? I do not knoiw. I can't speak on St. Vincent's, but from one posters thoughts they don;t measure up to Lackawanna. I am also sure that Mr. Murray is aware of Lackawanna's future plans, and wouldn't have given them an invitation if he didn't think they were worthy. If I hear of anything else I will share as I know each individual coach/team has their AD meetings next week to discuss the transition.

This is good information, thank you. To me, this sounds like the best-case scenario is they join the PSAC, they succeed, and then their ambitions take them into the NEC. If they are really looking at throwing money around, I don't imagine that the road ends in D2 when there is a D1 conference in their backyard desperate to add anyone with a pulse. Then we're back where we started.

Worst case scenario is the transition goes worse than they hope and they become deadweight academically and athletically. Maybe an easy win on the schedule but they do nothing to actually elevate the conference.

I am not sure how much middle ground there is. I guess that is my big question, is whether there even is a middle ground and how likely it is to occur. Otherwise this seems like an unnecessary risk for the PSAC to take at a time when it's relatively healthy, all things considered. I would have preferred if the conference let them lobby to join the ECC (who has only 9 members), park football as a NE-10 affiliate (lord knows they need it), and have them prove themselves at the D2 level before the PSAC considers adding them.

[Fightingscot82]

But we know in college athletics size doesn't matter.

Sure. Their open admissions policy will be an asset, although none of our schools are considered highly selective by any means, and some are not far off from open admissions.

I do truly question their ability to field a quality Division II athletic program. That includes scholarships. Sure, they'd have the niche Scranton-Wilkes Barre market, but I doubt their ability to draw the community to the must see event of Lackawanna/Peirce vs. Millersville.

[Ship69]

But we know in college athletics size doesn't matter.

Doesn't always matter for athletics, but you need a certain level of enrollment to be a viable school. And the high school demographics for Pa. don't look good.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Doesn't always matter for athletics, but you need a certain level of enrollment to be a viable school. And the high school demographics for Pa. don't look good.

Kind of my point. They were attractive as a 'nowhere else to go' type of place that had a good collection of football players NCAA schools couldn't admit.

It isn't nearly as attractive (at all) as a four-year school. It will also now have the dreaded D2 stigma like the rest of us.

It was a path to the NCAA. I can only imagine what the academics were like there. Everything changes playing by NCAA rules.

[ESU Warrior]

Kind of my point. They were attractive as a 'nowhere else to go' type of place that had a good collection of football players NCAA schools couldn't admit.

It isn't nearly as attractive (at all) as a four-year school. It will also now have the dreaded D2 stigma like the rest of us.

It was a path to the NCAA. I can only imagine what the academics were like there. Everything changes playing by NCAA rules.

That is a bad stigma they get. Back in the early 2000's kids went there because they did not have the grades and did not have any other option. However it is 2025, and right now I personally can tell you there are kids that go there that do have the grades, and either want to stay close to the area or get another year of experience before trying to moving on. Some kids on that roster were even at other schools, some were even PSAC schools, prior to re-enrolling at Lackawanna. I think over the last 5-6 years the transfer portal really changed the game, and the fact that a JUCO will not count towards NCAA eligibility gave them more options in the recruiting world.

[Fightingscot82]

My concerns focus on market share. Pennsylvania has an overabundance of options for 4-year colleges and universities. Public, private, for-profit, trade-focused, seminaries, non-seminary religious schools, etc. You can spend as little as $7,716 a year at a PASSHE university up to $68,180 at Franklin & Marshall. There are an additional 20-25 schools within 10 miles of a PA border. The glut of 4-year college options is at the bottom third of the totem pole where every one of our schools lives (even Gannon no matter what their folks say), so its ultra competitive for above average students with decent test scores. Yet this region has a declining population of school age citizens, especially now that immigration has declining even faster, making the competition even stiffer. Lackawanna/Peirce probably thinks going to NCAA scholarship sports competing with other schools in that lower echelon is a smart strategy because it worked for so long, but there is a diminishing pool. Being a JUCO backup plan was Lackawanna's sales pitch - they were one of only three 2 year football options in Pennsylvania. With no distinctive degree programs to distinguish itself. Terrible move for everyone.

[iupgroundhog]

My concerns focus on market share. Pennsylvania has an overabundance of options for 4-year colleges and universities. Public, private, for-profit, trade-focused, seminaries, non-seminary religious schools, etc. You can spend as little as $7,716 a year at a PASSHE university up to $68,180 at Franklin & Marshall. There are an additional 20-25 schools within 10 miles of a PA border. The glut of 4-year college options is at the bottom third of the totem pole where every one of our schools lives (even Gannon no matter what their folks say), so its ultra competitive for above average students with decent test scores. Yet this region has a declining population of school age citizens, especially now that immigration has declining even faster, making the competition even stiffer. Lackawanna/Peirce probably thinks going to NCAA scholarship sports competing with other schools in that lower echelon is a smart strategy because it worked for so long, but there is a diminishing pool. Being a JUCO backup plan was Lackawanna's sales pitch - they were one of only three 2 year football options in Pennsylvania. With no distinctive degree programs to distinguish itself. Terrible move for everyone.

From this conversation it seems like it's a done deal that they are going to be joining the conference so I guess we'll find out. But it will take a few years to understand how it's working. It's a unique higher ed model. I see no compatibility whatsoever in that Lackawanna/Peirce merger. Why? I think the entire operation is going to be focused on enrolling non-traditional aged students; however, the football and other sports teams will be made up of traditional-aged students, so there is a dichotomy there. It's not like the athletes will be integrated into a traditional college life, but does traditional college life even exist any more?

Enrollment-wise, Lackawanna will face it's own challenges but those challenges are different than the PASSHE schools face. Can they recruit students from NJ, a state that does not have the same declining population problem as PA. Or, even NY? Can they recruit from the City of Philadelphia?

They are in Scranton. Man, that region is beat. The last time I was there (Scranton/Wilkes-Barre) I was shocked at how burnt out that entire region was. NEPA is rundown but there also is a dearth of higher ed choices in that part of the state. It seems all about the future for Lackawanna. Can they create something good up there? Maybe - but it will require some kind of strong relationship with the economic development entities in Scranton.

They have tried a lot of development things up there over the years and these haven't worked out. Anybody remember Ghost Town in the Glen? Probably when I was a teenager, they developed this amusement park in Moosic (outside Scranton) and promoted it heavily as a tourist destination. It failed miserably. Eventually, on that site they lured the Phillies to build a minor league stadium for their AAA franchise. The stadium was an exact replica of the old Veteran's Stadium in South Philly, except for the seating capacity. That stadium is still there and houses the AAA affiliate of the Yankees.

Football is a different thing. It's a situation where the school can promote itself through sports. That's a concept I hate. But we shall see what happens.

[IUP24]

Kind of my point. They were attractive as a 'nowhere else to go' type of place that had a good collection of football players NCAA schools couldn't admit.

It isn't nearly as attractive (at all) as a four-year school. It will also now have the dreaded D2 stigma like the rest of us.

It was a path to the NCAA. I can only imagine what the academics were like there. Everything changes playing by NCAA rules.

Unfortunately for players at Lackawanna, they can no longer sue the NCAA for a 12th year of eligibility in the future using the premise and legal precent (now established) that they were not participating in NCAA athletics while at Lackawanna.

[Fightingscot82]

From this conversation it seems like it's a done deal that they are going to be joining the conference so I guess we'll find out. But it will take a few years to understand how it's working. It's a unique higher ed model. I see no compatibility whatsoever in that Lackawanna/Peirce merger. Why? I think the entire operation is going to be focused on enrolling non-traditional aged students; however, the football and other sports teams will be made up of traditional-aged students, so there is a dichotomy there. It's not like the athletes will be integrated into a traditional college life, but does traditional college life even exist any more?

Enrollment-wise, Lackawanna will face it's own challenges but those challenges are different than the PASSHE schools face. Can they recruit students from NJ, a state that does not have the same declining population problem as PA. Or, even NY? Can they recruit from the City of Philadelphia?

They are in Scranton. Man, that region is beat. The last time I was there (Scranton/Wilkes-Barre) I was shocked at how burnt out that entire region was. NEPA is rundown but there also is a dearth of higher ed choices in that part of the state. It seems all about the future for Lackawanna. Can they create something good up there? Maybe - but it will require some kind of strong relationship with the economic development entities in Scranton.

They have tried a lot of development things up there over the years and these haven't worked out. Anybody remember Ghost Town in the Glen? Probably when I was a teenager, they developed this amusement park in Moosic (outside Scranton) and promoted it heavily as a tourist destination. It failed miserably. Eventually, on that site they lured the Phillies to build a minor league stadium for their AAA franchise. The stadium was an exact replica of the old Veteran's Stadium in South Philly, except for the seating capacity. That stadium is still there and houses the AAA affiliate of the Yankees.

Football is a different thing. It's a situation where the school can promote itself through sports. That's a concept I hate. But we shall see what happens.

New York and New Jersey populations have remained stable through immigration and domestic migration. Same with the area between Philly and Lancaster. Now that NYC and Philly don't have the same allure as decades before, I have to wonder how long until their populations start to creep down as domestic birth rate plummets.

[Bart]

They have tried a lot of development things up there over the years and these haven't worked out. Anybody remember Ghost Town in the Glen? Probably when I was a teenager, they developed this amusement park in Moosic (outside Scranton) and promoted it heavily as a tourist destination. It failed miserably. Eventually, on that site they lured the Phillies to build a minor league stadium for their AAA franchise. The stadium was an exact replica of the old Veteran's Stadium in South Philly, except for the seating capacity. That stadium is still there and houses the AAA affiliate of the Yankees.

Football is a different thing. It's a situation where the school can promote itself through sports. That's a concept I hate. But we shall see what happens.

Ghost Town in the Glen brings back memories. It was next to a lake with water acrobatic shows with water skiing and western shoot outs in a western town. Originally started as Rocky Glen Park in 1886. They had some good concerts there; watched Harry Chapin there in the 70's. The park went thru several names and owners before closing the late eighties as did many local amusement parks.

[iupgroundhog]

Ghost Town in the Glen brings back memories. It was next to a lake with water acrobatic shows with water skiing and western shoot outs in a western town. Originally started as Rocky Glen Park in 1886. They had some good concerts there; watched Harry Chapin there in the 70's. The park went thru several names and owners before closing the late eighties as did many local amusement parks.

I was never there but I have some faded memories of their TV commercials

[IUPNation]

New York and New Jersey populations have remained stable through immigration and domestic migration. Same with the area between Philly and Lancaster. Now that NYC and Philly don't have the same allure as decades before, I have to wonder how long until their populations start to creep down as domestic birth rate plummets.

New York and Philly added population on the latest estimates for 2024. I never believed for a second it declined during COVID. There is much new housing in the city. Somebody is moving in…

[TheBigCat2192]

The PSAC published their strategic plan for 2025-2030 yesterday. In a section titled “Membership and Positioning” the PSAC published a goal statement that reads

The PSAC commits to building its status as a leader in NCAA Division II and a destination for prospective student-athletes, coaches, and administrators.

I’m not sure how I see how adding a JUCO that is transitioning to a four-year institution contributes to the goal, especially not the “leader in NCAA Division II” portion.

[Fightingscot82]

New York and Philly added population on the latest estimates for 2024. I never believed for a second it declined during COVID. There is much new housing in the city. Somebody is moving in…

Yes, but much has changed since 2024. Immigration has come to a standstill, the biggest factor in east coast population growth.